How long has evolutionary creationism been around?

You see the thing is @Christy, @jstump, that EC is inextricably correlated with a more than minimally interventionist God, for which there is no rationally, intellectually honest, faithful warrant whatsoever. I’m not aware of any post-Darwinian Christian (apart from the successors and predecessors of the Danish father of existentialism who cannot be named here, like Tillich, (Bultmann, Kant, Fichte, Hegel, Bonhoeffer, Barth, Ricœur, Dostoyevsky Tolstoy, Berdyaev…)) who isn’t a theist beyond the rationally faithful minimum. Theism that requires God to intervene in times of trouble and leave no statistically detectable trace whatsoever is an imparsimonious - unnecessary - complexity that undermines faith. Even the blessed St. Clive is complicit, implicit in superstition. Primo Levi isn’t. But of course, he wasn’t Christian. But he certainly lived through a time of trouble. Of obscene suffering which ridicules divine intervention. But not God on the gibbet.

The problem with EC is that it implies, or lets readers infer, that God ‘the Designer’ (BioLogos’ term), uses evolution. Deduction. The idea comes first. He uses creation, the grounding, instantiating of being by the prevenient laws of physics, from which abiogenesis and evolution autonomously emerge. Induction. Observation comes first. And meaningless suffering is utterly perichoretic in creation for all concerned.

Well I did not get very far with my question about time-lines, and creation and evolution not being mutually exclusive.

But let me reply to some other points made about my Gifting, which incidentally I did not ask for, or need!

It is the Holy Spirit who brings definitive learning to the Word of God, see John 16: 3-15. This is WHO we need, to avoid believing in biblical errors, (some of these you highlighted) created by Exegetes erroneous narratives.
It is of course imperative to be able to discern the spirits if you are someone who relays God’s messages; see 1 Corinthians 12:10 and 1:John 4:1-21. This ability kind of comes with an authentic gift!
And, yes, it is very important to have a Church with a Minister, Christian friends for community, and if possible fellowship with Christians who share a similar walk with the Lord Jesus Christ. And, no one gift is greater than another, and in God’s eyes no one Christian is ever greater than another, including Christian Scientists. Above all our Heavenly Father loves the humble who seek to share His love,
see 1: Corinthians 13:1.

To stay safe and ensure I stay on the Strait and Narrow Path, I have The Shepherd with me, and I KNOW Jesus Christ, not just ABOUT Him. As well, I have many Christian Shepherds who ‘walk’ with me, through God’s Will for my life.

Finally, I have known for ages that time itself, is NOT constant. Interestingly in Mark 13:22, the Bible talks about shortening the days at the end (of the age) times. Do you think God is just referring to the actual number of days? Or do you think God is alluding to something else?

Remember, Science is by nature fluid, what it knew before, it unlearns today, and what it knows today, it unlearns tomorrow. Only God has ALL the answers, and He imparts these as, and where, and when, He sees fit.

Religion is fluid, changing from one person to another as well as from one day to the next. Hard science is not fluid, the objective measurable evidence remains the same and gives the same results no matter who does the procedures or what they may want or believe. The interpretations of people are fluid and changing which dominates philosophy and religion far more than it does science.

He may have them but no God does not impart them so freely or easily let alone precisely and consistently. Science is precise and consistent within the limit in which it works, and so within those limits it is only reasonable to accept those results.

That is what the Greek means, (lit: maim, mutilate), cut short, shorten, abbreviate.

We must agree to differ.

Even so called ‘hard’ Science is subject to change and error; there is no such thing as a zero probability level, no absolutely not.

I am not trying to convince you of anything, clearly your mind is made up from the evidence you have seen, as is mine.

And, please don’t mention reliability and validity, I am tired of this debate. But please have the last say if you must.

I stand and stay by what I have said.

Certainly. You are free to change the meaning of the Greek into whatever fits your fancy.

You are confusing me with someone else.

Clearly I am confusing you with someone else, guess who?

As for translation and the meaning of biblical text, this varies between the Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic etc… So don’t get too stuck in one place! And, don’t forget the biblical errors within exegesis.

I have no “fancy” about God’s Word, it is the widely read and open mind, which gets closer to His Truth. Connection to God is key.

In my humble opinion narrow views are rarely worth much consideration, when compared to the long view.

…looks way back into time. God was not short of it nor impatient that he had to do it in man’s days.

A favorite, by a Christian physicist – try this on for size :slightly_smiling_face::

John 1:1-4 (NIV2011)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

Dear Jennie,

Please allow me to respond to our question. Indeed I see it as a question basic to us as people of faith. It is the question of How do we reconcile God and God’s perfection (creation) and humanity and our imperfection (evolution?)

It is easy to give up and say that they cannot be reconciled so Creationism or Dawkinsism is true, but we believe that God reconciled the universe to Godself though Jesus Christ the Savior. Therefore, we must say that what is impossible for humans is possible for God. God is able to create through evolution.

  1. God did create the universe in the blink of an eye. That is called the Big Bang. It is absolutely amazing that God created matter, energy. time, and space in the blink of an eye.

  2. The problem for humans, not for God, is that this universe was not complete, because the universe is finite. Nonetheless this universe is “good,” because it was created through the Logos, Jesus Christ the Word of God.

  3. People want the universe to be infinite and be perfect and when it is not they say that it is evil, which it is not.

  4. Our world has evolved. It has been created a bit at a time and yet each phase is perfect and right, just not complete, and God is working on that in God’s own way.

  5. Jennie, God does not call us to be perfect. God calls us to live in faith and not in fear. We do not have to solve all the the world’s problems. That is God’s job.
    God is in control, which does not mean that God determines all that happens because God does not micromanage, but God makes all things work out right. .
    We need to love God and others, and ourselves, and enjoy all of the blessing God has given us.

Thank you for the replies.
I have decided what I was shown by the Holy Spirit is the truth; I have never known Him to deceive me, it is just not His style. This said, I have concluded that apart from the disagreements regarding the supposedly solid status of hard (quantitative,) Science and its’ reliability; the problem for me has been trying to understand the way our unfathomable and Almighty God worked everything out
vis a vis creation, being a process achieved, in the ‘blink of an eye’ and via a continuum called evolution.
Clearly God’s infinity of Creation is beyond the understanding of a finite earth bound mind. And, really it was presumptuous and pretty arrogant of me to keep on insisting I needed to understand all the nuts and bolts of God’s grand design.
Can I just have one last say about the Bible as the definitive Word of God: beware of translation errors by Exegetes, and the subjective interpretations offered by HUMAN Eisiegesis, compare the different interpretations of text between the Greek, the Hebrew and the Aramaic languages etc… Beware of the many false prophets around today, and most important of all foster a close and intimate relationship with our Triune God. This in itself is a great mystery open to all who desire to know our loving Heavenly Father.

“Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.”
2 Corinthians 3: 17.


When Love catches fire

It burns so bright

Letting the soul and the spirit fly

High and higher

Wide and wider

No hills to climb

Or valleys to plunge

Rests now and flows in ‘Living Waters’

Chains unbound set free

Travels then beyond the edge

Where time ends

And ‘place’ no longer imprisons me.

Written by Jennie Starling: 22/11/2020.

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