My hair is about 70% white. But I am younger than maggie, who is still younger than my mother – who I should check upon about now. So see ya.
So do I, they tell me. 
But I feel older than my years. If you’re interested in some trivia and have access to the internet , I’m a day younger than Prince Charles.
You might be interested in my nephrectomy story, since cancer is by and large more prevalent among the aged, and since it demonstrates God’s providence, something we both have a vital interest in.
Well you’re about 5 years ahead of me and an equal measure short of my wife. But of course the cliff awaits all us lemmings and some who start later get there sooner. Jump well.
Huh. My wife is about that far ahead of me as yours is you, too, if I counted correctly.
I’m looking forward to a warm embrace from my elder Brother on the other side of a narrow Jordan, across which I may have some welcoming support. T’ain’t no cliff.
Hard to resist a distinguished older lady I suppose.
Well if you miss the jump ramp, embrace well.
More time together might be another advantage. We males seem to be so much less durable probably because of the steroids made by our own bodies. Our easy strength gain has a bitter price. Then again perhaps women need the endurance more than we do… or they did before birth control.
My wife is a year younger, however. Oh well. But I am not trading her in. Not a chance.
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Reminds me of what my friend who is another ten years older than Lia said to me. He has always bottled his own wine as a hobby. So one night I asked him how the vintnering was going. He said he’d retired. When I asked why he said with a straight face that he’d checked the actuarial tables and was quite sure they now had plenty.
Unfortunately my wife while tough as nails in most regards has got more exotic diseases circling her like vultures than you can shake a stick at. But she has good doctors and she is their favorite patient because she knows more about what she has than most GP’s would have reason to from researching on line and buying books. One at Vanderbilt, but now retired, has always encouraged her to call him any Sunday night. He gardens as I do and has been out to visit us. More than one has said she’d be their first choice if they ever needed a medical advocate. So with any luck she can dance on my grave, but more likely the buzzards will win and I’ll spare her the grief.
Thanks for sticking up for people of faith on the atheist forums you visit. I appreciate that!!
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My pleasure. Well, that was little blithe. In fact one makes relationships even online with people who can be kind, rational and funny one moment and the next thing you know some new believer has arrived and those people who seemed okay one moment turn into churlish teenagers venting their spleen and showing none of their better qualities toward the new arrival. I quit the first such forums I joined on account a particularly nasty lord of the flies event in which one of the moderators was every bit as ugly and unreflective as the others. Haven’t been back. So these kinds of encounters are stressful and unpleasant, like calling out your cousins for their racist remarks.
But especially when I think of the quality of believer I meet here, I’m glad to have made the decision and taken the actions I have at those sites.
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Hello Mark, Are you still out there? I wanted to add something to my reply several days ago after hearing of your family’s poorly communicated zeal. You said you wished you could have the kind of discussion with them, that you can have with us. Why don’t you use us as a substitute sounding boarding, for when you wanted to ask them questions, but the disparity of your wavelengths made it impossible?
I can remember years ago when a sincere Believer (when I was not), asked me whether I was “saved”? I immediately had several responsive questions in my mind: “What from?” “What are you talking about?” ,“I don’t know, are you?”, “Why are you asking such a strange question?”, but instead just stared blankly. I would suggest then, that you pick our brains; you must have questions they could not answer, or where their answers did not make sense.
I have learned one thing about faith other than the fact that it means trusting God even though we can’t see him. Faith for many of us means we needed to understand WHY, God has rules and underlying principles. Some people can have faith without understanding. Therefore when they are asked these questions, they have no answers other than “because that’s the way it is”. For men of science who want to understand, their replies are not enough. It was not enough for me. I came to have faith, but only after I saw what I needed to see as proof for me. That is something different for every person, but seeing that different people experienced what they needed to settle the issue, everyone should realize there is a way for them to know for certain, too, and they owe it to themselves to find out the truth just in case what we say is true: there is an eternal after-life following this temporal one. It has two departments, a department of joy and a department of suffering, each with its own king. The department where we live in the next life is dependent entirely on what we do in this life; there are no second chances. It is imperative that every person make the decisions in this life, so that the way he lives and motives in his heart, guarantee a place in “the kingdom of joy”. The Christian members of your family know this, and are eager to share their knowledge with you, but first, it is most likely that their own knowledge is flawed. Many people who say they are Christians do not measure up to what Jesus said would define as a Christian. More important, even among those who do, most could not explain on an intellectual level what the factors are which will ensure that a person’s eternal home will be in the kingdom of joy rather than the kingdom of suffering. Perfect faith ensures eternal life. Simple acceptance of the word of God, that He is who he says he is and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him, will perfect the faith of those who start out with it. For those of us who did not find faith just by hearing, and believing the Word, God is willing to give us what we need to believe.
Why does it all matter? It matters because of the roads to the after life. We choose now, either the one that leads to joy or the one that leads to horror, not just suffering, whether or not we realize we made that choice. The people who care most about you, want you to make the right choice, but have no ability whatsoever to communicate it to anyone who does not know the mantra “you must accept Jesus as your personal Lord and savior; confess your sins; be born again; and be saved”. There are actually only a few denominations that speak this way, but they are all American, and very large. Many Christians would not have the slightest idea what they are saying. I did not, but I was earnestly wanting to know if God was real, personal, benevolent etc. People who talked that way simply seemed strange to me, with no common ground between us. From their perspective I did not know what they meant by any of these words: accept, Jesus, personal, Lord, savior, confess, sins, born again, or saved… As far as I was concerned they might just as well have said to me, “You must qwerty yuiop pasdfg ghjkl asdfgh hjkl, and fghjk, xcvbnm!.”
So Mark, as a brother human, a member of the human family, I would to meet and converse with you in the afterlife, where I shall live in the Kingdom of Joy, whose King will be Jesus. However, in able to have the assuance that I will be able to do so then, I am concerned that you fully understand how to get on the correct road that leads there. I am certain that the others on BioLogos who have had input feel the same way. There are an amazing number of roads that lead to the afterlife, but everyone of them leads to the Kingdom of suffering, except for the only one which leads to the Kingdom of Joy. The difference between them is that only One Way has a solid foundation of rock, and is unshakeable. Every other way is built on a foundation that seems secure, but is seriously unsound.
What wise, humble, gentle, compassionate people who truly want to live by the precepts of God ultimately learn is, that “whether is person is good” is not what God uses to judge whether a person will have eternal life in the Kingdom of Joy. “Good” in one sense, is literally “God”; there is only one. No one else can measure up. No one will ever be good enough. In another sense “good” is entirely subjective. What I may think is a good thing to do, may actually be a terrrible thing to do depending on the circumstances.
Christianity is wrapped up in the person called Jesus, Yeshua in Aramaic, “The Christ”, from Greek anointed one of God. He came to Earth to be and illustrate in part, the nature and character of God. He was executed, but could not stay dead because He was was perfect in character; He rose up alive and is still alive today, omnipotent and omnipresent, the Son of God, King of the Universe, “Lord of the Manor”. The essence of Christianity is not a philosophy; not a way of life, not a set of doctrines, but a relationship with a person, Jesus - almost as if we were individually paired with Him, like con-joined twins, but His being the dominant hand. It is that living relationship with Jesus, which He develops in us as we seek answers from God in the Bible, in prayer; asking Him to lead us, which He uses to teach us about Himself. It is our daily inter-communicating relationship with Him that guides along the Way that leads to eternal life in His Kingdom, a Way that the Bible calls the highway of holiness. God is holy, and asks that we set our hearts to love holiness - and let him teach us what is holy.
I just wanted to say what has been on my heart. I hope you will not withdraw from communication, but perhaps will ask any of us the questions your family members could not answer.
Still here.
Oh I do. But I don’t look at it as looking for answers so much as sharing perspectives. I don’t generally look for answers to big questions from others but sometimes it is nice to compare notes. In the end we all will make our own decisions.
That isn’t one of my questions but perhaps it is one of yours? I did think this was real when I was very young but before I got to middle school it seemed unworkable. No one has incontrovertible evidence one way or the other but I assume my death is an ending, not a beginning. Life still seems like one amazing deal regardless. But I have no argument which I think should persuade someone who does believe in an afterlife that I’m right. Likewise I’ve never heard anything persuasive in the other direction and I have no interest in what some suppose are NDE’s.
Not much danger of that. I like it here. But I’m not interested arguing for my not entirely defensible positions and prefer to have my choices respected in the same way I respect yours.
I am quite skeptical of these also, but I did just watch a movie on this which I thought was very well done, “Hereafter.”
Well a little sci fi/fantasy can be fun regardless of how far fetched something might seem as natural history. 
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I am a newbie, so far just a voyeur, but this thread has stimulated a few thoughts which I hope I can express adequately.
I think that with God everything is natural, with us what we understand we call natural and what we don’t yet understand, we call supernatural or miracles. There is much today that we call natural, especially in the medical field, that 2000 years ago would be called miracles.
For me things usually go in cycles:
- Everything is going well and it is easy to get feeling confident in my own abilities
- Problems start arising and I get angry and still manage to overcome them
- I start losing confidence and failing and start feeling useless, helpless – “poor in spirit”
- I realize I am focused on me not God. When I focus on loving God I don’t need to worry, I can be confident that he will supply all my needs and all things work together for good for those that love God. I gain a confidence that through him I can do things more amazing than I ever imagined.
- Back to the top again
Alright, Mark. I guess I had made two incorrect assumptions from the beginning. I am new to BioLogos, and had assumed that anyone who used the site was both a scientist and a Christian. Then discovering that neither of these was necessarily true, I assumed anyone visiting the site has a scientifically oriented mind (I still assume that) and uses analytical reasoning to consider new information. I also assumed any visitor was drawn to the site, because the premise for its existence is a common belief that Creation did not spring into existence of its own accord, but there is one Creator. He is variously identified by the people who are the “core” users as “the God of the Bible”, “Elohim”, “YHWH”, “God” or even “Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” I won’t make any more assumptions, although I do wonder why else people would be interested in the site.
There are a number of reasons in my case. One is that while I’m not a Christian I recognize that I hold some beliefs on faith. Like Christians I find I do believe in something more which seems interested and helpful. Unlike Christians, I don’t think the something extra is ‘out there’ or omnipotent. So I do not think any being is responsible for creating the entire cosmos. I think what has given rise to and still supports belief in gods or God is something we have onboard which arises right along side our sense of self in consciousness. There is a sense in which it is wiser and more knowledgable, but certainly not omniscient. So I like it here in part because believers, like myself, believe in something more and I find reductive thinking like scientism undesirable. In many religious forums people are riddled with biblicism, fundamentalism and fear of the unknown. That isn’t the case here.
There is a nice range of expertise here too. I’ve learned a huge amount from @Christy about language and story telling, an area of interest in which I have very little expertise. Then there is the expertise in science of course which is very well represented here and of interest to me as it is to so many lay people. There are also many who show an appreciation for careful, philosophical reasoning. That can be especially rare in other religious settings where the need to harmonize ones thinking with the group is so strong. But people here are braver than that, showing greater faith to my way of thinking.
So what’s not to like?
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John, You have expressed your thoughts well. As far as God is concerned, everything is natural - for him. However, he wants us to grasp the reality that only with God, all things are possible. With men**, many** things are impossible. The things that are impossible to us, but natural to him when he intervenes, are what we call miracles.
God wants us to figure out that only he is almighty; we need him. He is the Creator and we are the work of his hands. Therefore, for every human being, until the day we know absolutely our own abilities are not sufficient, God brings us up and down through cycles. "I have it all under control; I am successful; no, I am not successful, but could be; no I failed and need God’s help; “Help me, God”; He helps us up. “Thanks, God; I’m ok now, I can do it on my own”, “I have everything under control.”
Until the day we admit God alone is Omnipotent, but also holy, righteous, compassionate and supernatural, we will live in a constant cycle of success and failure - palaces and dumps. He is also rightfully jealous, because he loves us. God demands that we admit our successes and abilities were only made possible by him. The reason is that if we try to take credit for them, he knows the enemy of our souls will take control of our pride, and destroy us. He loves us too much to allow that. He wants us to be humble; joyfully subject to his precepts, thus safely protected by his boundaries.
I laughed at this, but…
I am not sure that it is quite fair to classify something which people actually experience and believe in as science fiction.
…as long as they don’t try to push this on you at least. Then I suppose, just as a matter of comparison to the things backed up by objective scientific evidence, you might be tempted to liken this to SF&F. This is going along with this basic principle I have been promoting that personal experience is easily the best evidence for personal belief but cannot provide a reasonable expectation that others should agree.
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That’s fair. I didn’t mean that the way you took it though. You see how it makes my point about language being like a slippery fish which doesn’t always go where you intend. My bad. I was actually thinking of things like that first contact movie, reincarnation and that movie about an afterlife involving watching scenes from ones life and defending your case for ‘moving on’. I want to say Meryl Syreep (sp?) might have been in it. Fun even if profane in some sense. No ridicule intended.
Nothing anyone else ever said convinced me, either. What other people said however, caused me to wonder, "What if they are right? (i.e., what if I am wrong; what if there really is a “hereafter”?) My perspective then became one of a researcher on the issue “Does God exist?” I don’t think the negative can ever be proven - that he doesn’t exist. However, statistical probabilities have to be taken into account in view of real life experiences. In my case, I could accept five answered prayers as “proof” of God’s existence and nature simply on the basis of mathematical probability.
If in six weeks of looking for answers without prayers, as to how I could be sustained with no friends, no income, no place to live, too sick to be employable and no way to pay for my car, there had not been the slightest glimmer of light, would humble, honest, open-minded prayer make a difference? I wanted to know. In terms of mathematical probabilities, the statistics that any one of the five things that happened immediately after my prayer would happen naturally was more than a long shot. None was remotely likely. All were extremely unlikely. Given that base, what would be the probability that five extremely unlikely events would all occur in a specified time frame, in a specified order, since all had been needed for six weeks, but none had thus far occurred? Realistically, it was zero, Add in the factor of honest prayer as a definer in determining whether or not God is real. The probability in the natural course of things is still zero. Adding prayer ended with five improbabilities not just occurring, but in the order and specified time frame. Would it not be disingenuous of me not to accept the result as proof of the hypothesis: that God is real; able to overrule the natural order of things; to intervene in the life of people who come to him; in benevolent actions for their well-being? From my point of view, people who tell me to disregard the results of the experiment I designed, and chalk the results up to coincidence, are telling me discard the scientific method simply because the results violate their personal opinion. I had two identical sets of five needs that had persisted for six weeks. I had zero results without the variable of prayer. When I added (Biblical) prayer honest, submissive to the majesty of God - I had 100% positive results. There was only one variable.
On course this was only one week-end experiment, but it set the course for my life. I have had thousands of similar proofs since then that cemented my faith. Everyone has to find peace personally.
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