it is however an invention by a human mind, not from a revelation of God.
I am curious to see what kind of version of the Trinity that you held and how it differ from the saying “One God in three persons”.
While I marvel at the capacity of our brain, when we talk about an infinite being such as God, our finite mind can’t fathom Him. Yes, in the case of nature of God, I do plead ignorance and do rely on what God had reveal Himself to us in the Bible and in nature.
I wonder on how you can reach such conclusion about me disliking the Bible. Is there anything I said that imply even an inkling of that?
I hate to write things over that basically explain the same thing. Paul had the understanding that Jesus was fully God though His title is the Son of God. Therefore the tension that I am talking about. by saying in Col 2:9, “for in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form”. If you keep reading to Col 2:15, Paul was also explaining the role of the Father. However, Paul did not try to explain further or define the true nature of Jesus as God in relationship with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit as is in the doctrine of Trinity in the present form.
I didn’t. That was a typo. I meant the doctrine of the Trinity.
Where are you getting that from? I couldn’t find any branch of Gnosticism teaching this.
And there was no evidence that Paul confronted Gnosticism at all.
Paul’s battle was with the Judaizers. And because of that the Gnostics may have felt encouraged by Paul to go in the opposite direction, replacing Jewish ideas of God with those of Greek philosophy, which is where most of Gnosticism comes from.
No, no hierarchy. Jesus said “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
Sometimes you object to the doctrine of the Trinity because you think it isn’t in the Bible.
(the word isn’t there but the idea is clearly inferred)
Other times you object to it because you think it takes away from the mystery.
But Paul says in 1 Cor
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
So you have the doctrine of the resurrection AND mystery.
I did not miss your post. I am just curious how your understanding of Trinity differ from “one God in three persons”.
Jesus is identified by some Gnostics as an embodiment of the supreme being who became incarnate to bring gnōsis to the earth , while others adamantly denied that the supreme being came in the flesh, claiming Jesus to be merely a human who attained enlightenment through gnosis and taught his disciples to do the same. (wikipedia)
I guess that where you stand with the doctrine of Trinity. That is also where I have a problem with.
1 Cor 15 : 24-28 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
It is clear to me that there must be a hierarchy.
it is basically the same objection. It is not my desire to hold to the mysteries tension between God the Son with God the Father. However, because Trinity is not explicitly taught in the bible, I hold on to it.
I don’t know what this particular passage means, but there are many, many more scriptures showing that Jesus is God and not lesser somehow. It is most clearly articulated in the Gospel of John.
I don’t know what you are saying here.
You might want to take a look at The Christological Controversy (Sources of Early Christian Thought) by Richard Norris.
What does your pastor have to say about all this? And what about your fellow parishioners? I’d love to know what they think.
So… you are trying to comprehend the logical difference between these…
Three persons are one God.
and
God is three persons.
How about some other example of this logical difference.
Hydrogen, helium, and carbon are atomic elements.
The atomic elements are hydrogen, helium, and carbon.
Do you see the difference how?
Not sure what does my pastor think or my fellow parishioners think has anything to do with our discussion on trinity. I hold doctrines from the bible not because of my pastor or my church, but because of my study of the bible.
Perhaps you can show me clearly where in the Bible that teaches that Jesus is equal to God the Father in everything. I have shown you that passage from 1 Cor 15:24-28. This is not the only passage that shows there is hierarchy. There are many other passages that for me showing hierarchy.
and classic formulation : One God in Three persons.
I am sorry that I can’t seem to differentiate between these 2 statements. I am sorry if your analogy in chemical is not helpful for me to understand the differences between these two.
So you cannot see what wrong with the statement that “The atomic elements are hydrogen, helium and carbon?” Really???
ok… more examples…
The mammals are elephants, horses, and dogs. The genres of literature are romance, horror, and science fiction. The prophets are Ezekiel, Micah, and Malachi. The gospels are Mark, Luke, and John.
You don’t see anything wrong with any of these?
Incorrect.
That may be a popular formulation but it is not the original.
wow, that is new to me. very interesting indeed. so, in your view, there are possibility that this one God has many other persons that we have not known about. He might have infinite number of persons if I understand you correctly.
Not sure if you got that from the original formulation of the doctrine of Trinity.
The original formulation simply says what we know and doesn’t say what we don’t know.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, but only one God.
And I certainly don’t claim know there are any other persons which are God.
But I do know that the universe is a very big place and see no reason why God would be limited to this one planet. I don’t think it is impossible that we are the only intelligent beings in the universe having a relationship with God. 13.8 billion years does not seem like such a long time when you consider how much went into the making of the earth. But neither is it impossible that God created an infinite number of worlds like our own, many with their own problems and God with whatever solution are needed. And even if we are the only ones, it doesn’t mean there never will be any others. We just don’t know.
The prologue to John’s Gospel is one place. I mentioned that already. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And that Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Not part of the Word.
There are plenty of other passages but I doubt you’d be interested.
What? You don’t even care what your church teaches? Please explain. I wouldn’t stay 2 seconds in a church that didn’t believe in the central teachings of Christianity.
Do you participate in Holy Communion (the Eucharist, the Lord’s Supper)? Those phrases are not in the Bible. How many sacraments do you believe in? I imagine none, since that word isn’t in the Bible.
Am I right?
I find all this talk of lesser and greater to be a little strange. Is a child less than the parent? Jesus said if you would be greater then you would be a servant, even a servant of servants. Does the Father being greater than Jesus mean the Father is the servant of Jesus?
It would make so much more sense to me if the query was tied down to something more concrete. For example… is Jesus a created being? I am pretty sure beaglelady and I are on the same page with that one to say NO, Jesus is not a created being. How about @Miekhie ?
This is of course a very well known passage. The problem is I don’t see where in that passage anything mentioned about being equal with the Father is taught. the Word was God… thus the tension.
Then perhaps you wouldn’t be happy to be part of the early church where the doctrine of Trinity was not being taught. You wouldn’t be happy to have Peter, Paul or John to be your pastor because they apparently did not have an idea of the doctrine of Trinity.
Kind of a harsh accusation there. Of course I do. They are explicitly taught in the bible. Jesus told us to remember him. In this case, you are wrong.