How do you talk to committed YECs?

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

Is your ‘disbelief’ i

We are still not talking about my beliefs.

@Mervin_Bitikofer

required to invite this falsehood in as a precondition to their full acceptance as truly being able to fellowship with you in Christ

I fail to see how any belief in science, be it positive or negative can impinge on fellowship with Christ.
And you (or anyone else) has no God-given right to dictate what I or anyone else believes, or how those beliefs might be related to Christ.

@Mervin_Bitikofer

being wrong about these things is doing you (and others) considerable harm!

You seem to think that I am wrong in what I believe. Do you actually know what I believe? And do you have the right to declare it to be false? Especially when it comes to te intracasies of my faith! (Ad hominem!)

As a moderator you should know better.

Richard

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@RichardG

We are still not talking about my beliefs.

Substitute in ‘convictions’, ‘knowledge’, … whatever word better captures it … my point would still stand.

@RichardG

Do you actually know what I believe?

My statements, as given, weren’t presuming which of those options you embrace. I was simply giving them both - and without commentary on which way you currently go. And while I do gather (from other posts and from reading your other posts) that you do not believe common descent is a true explanation of the development of life; my response above did not even need that presumption. All I’m making a point about is that you’re probably wrong about some things and I think you have enough humility to accept that about yourself, then I’m merely stating what place our mistaken notions should (and should not) have among our religious fellowships. I wasn’t applying anything to you specifically that I haven’t applied to everyone here.

@RichardG

I fail to see how any belief in science, be it positive or negative can impinge on fellowship with Christ.

It can if it is demonstrably wrong AND the holder of the mistaken belief has turned it into a de facto article of faith for themselves and others. Again - I’m not here charging you with doing that. I’m only pointing out the circumstance to you in which some scientific issue could be become something harmful.

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

the holder of the mistaken belief has turned it into a de facto article of faith for themselves and others.

I think that was the question I asked. But it was rather rudely deflected.

At what point does the process of creation become that important?

Let me put it this way. A person who accepts the Evolutionary theory, as presented and taught now, has put aside their belief that God is at the centre of Creation. (Theistic evolution is not what is being taught)

Richard

[T_aquaticus]

@RichardG

I know that I am as guilty as anyone for this but is Evolution really the be-all and end-all of God and/or Christianity?

IOW what harm does it do not to believe it?

The root of the problem is much deeper. What is being asked of people is that they ignore facts in order to be a Christian. It’s as if they are being asked to sacrifice their ability to reason in order to be a Christian.

For YEC in particular:

Professor Darrel Falk has recently pointed out that one should not take the view that young-earth creationism is simply tinkering around the edges of science. If the tenets of young earth creationism were true, basically all of the sciences of geology, cosmology, and biology would utterly collapse. It would be the same as saying 2 plus 2 is actually 5. The tragedy of young-earth creationism is that it takes a relatively recent and extreme view of Genesis, applies to it an unjustified scientific gloss, and then asks sincere and well-meaning seekers to swallow this whole, despite the massive discordance with decades of scientific evidence from multiple disciplines. Is it any wonder that many sadly turn away from faith concluding that they cannot believe in a God who asks for an abandonment of logic and reason?
–Dr. Francis Collins, “Faith and the Human Genome”

Or for Evolution in particular:

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris.
–Clergy Letter Project
The Clergy Letter Project

15,000+ Christian clergy signed that letter.

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@T_aquaticus

15,000+ Christian clergy signed that lette

I wonder how many of them actually understand both what the theory actually says or means in relation to God?

It is not as simple as just accepting it (or rejecting it) blindly.

Richard

[T_aquaticus]

@RichardG

I wonder how many of them actually understand both what the theory actually says or means in relation to God?

Do you debate whether Christian theology should incorporate Heliocentrism based on what it means in relation to God?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@RichardG

A person who accepts the Evolutionary theory, as presented and taught now, has put aside their belief that God is at the centre of Creation.

Talk about utter nonsense and ill-informed bigotry (not to mention misspelling ‘center’ ).

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@RichardG

I wonder how many of them actually understand both what the theory actually says or means in relation to God?

It is not as simple as just accepting it (or rejecting it) blindly.

Richard

Maybe some of us (your part of ‘us’ especially) do not adequately comprehend God’s sovereignty over his creation and the pervasiveness (omnipresencia in Spanish, interestingly enough) of his providence.

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Dale

not to mention misspelling ‘center’

2 countries divided by a single language (and spelling)

@Dale

Talk about utter nonsense and ill-informed bigotry

Clearly you do not understand the consequences or ramifications of the Evolutionary theory.

I do not think that you have the right to proclaim what you just did (Forum ethics or no)

Richard

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Dale

Maybe some of us (your part of ‘us’ especially) do not adequately comprehend God’s sovereignty over his creation and the pervasiveness (omnipresencia in Spanish, interestingly enough) of his providence.

Maybe some do not understand what blind faith is.

Or that saying “God did it” is not enough.

Richard

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

How familiar are you with Augustine? I’ll let him do it.

In regards to things about the earth, the sky, other elements of this world, the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, the definite eclipses of the sun and moon, the passage of years and seasons, the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, it should not be surprising that such things can be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian.

Therefore, it is an utterly disgraceful and ruinous thing – and something that should be greatly avoided – if [a non-Christian] hears a Christian speaking like an idiot on these matters and trying to make them accord with Christian writings. When that happens, [the non-Christian] will say that he can’t keep from laughing when he sees how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some singular meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Dale

@RichardG

A person who accepts the Evolutionary theory, as presented and taught now, has put aside their belief that God is at the centre of Creation.

Talk about utter nonsense and ill-informed bigotry (not to mention misspelling ‘center’ ).

If you can say that about me…

[T_aquaticus]

@RichardG

Clearly you do not understand the consequences or ramifications of the Evolutionary theory.

The ramifications would be that God created biodiversity through the natural processes he set up in nature. This would be the same for everything else we see in nature. I have personally heard many Christians claim that God blessed them through what are very natural processes. I don’t see why that is a problem. A couple will say that God blessed them with a child, but I don’t think they are trying to claim it was an immaculate conception.

I see nothing in Christian theology that says God is not present when nature is proceeding through known laws and processes, nor do I see any indication that God can only act in defiance of natural processes.

It can hardly be supposed that a false theory would explain, in so satisfactory a manner as does the theory of natural selection, the several large classes of facts above specified. It has recently been objected that this is an unsafe method of arguing; but it is a method used in judging of the common events of life, and has often been used by the greatest natural philosophers … I see no good reason why the views given in this volume should shock the religious feelings of any one. It is satisfactory, as showing how transient such impressions are, to remember that the greatest discovery ever made by man, namely, the law of the attraction of gravity, was also attacked by Leibnitz, “as subversive of natural, and inferentially of revealed, religion.” A celebrated author and divine has written to me that “he has gradually learnt to see that it is just as noble a conception of the Deity to believe that He created a few original forms capable of self-development into other and needful forms, as to believe that He required a fresh act of creation to supply the voids caused by the action of His laws.”

— Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species (1859)

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@RichardG

A person who accepts the Evolutionary theory, as presented and taught now, has put aside their belief that God is at the centre of Creation.

@RichardG

I do not think that you have the right to proclaim what you just did (Forum ethics or no)

Actually that’s pretty funny, mentioning ‘Forum ethics’, because you are saying that about all of BioLogos and its Christian supporters on the forum, accusing them, that they have ‘put aside their belief that God is at the centre of Creation’!

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Dale

BioLogos

Is not proclaiming Evolution as it stands, although how they incorporate God into creation is not very clear (to me at least).

And that is the crunch. Christians who accept Evolution do not find the need to fit God in. He is just there. Who cares about the details!

(I do)

Richard

[T_aquaticus]

@RichardG

Is not proclaiming Evolution as it stands,

How so?

@RichardG

Christians who accept Evolution do not find the need to fit God in. He is just there.

How do you fit God into Germ Theory or Thermodynamics?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

There’s always the God-denying science of meteorology. Christians who accept it do not find the need to fit God in. He is just there. It’s funny how that works.

[jammycakes (James McKay)]

@RichardG

I know that I am as guilty as anyone for this but is Evolution really the be-all and end-all of God and/or Christianity?

IOW what harm does it do not to believe it?

The harm isn’t in not believing it. The harm is in not getting your facts straight about it.

I personally couldn’t care less whether evolution is true or not. But I care passionately about honest reporting and honest interpretation of accurate information, especially when it is being taught in the name of Christ. If, as a Christian, you are making easily falsified claims about things that can be fact-checked, tested and measured (and most aspects of the theory of evolution can be fact-checked, tested and measured, and you don’t need to have been there in the past to do so), you will undermine your own credibility, the credibility of other Christians, and the credibility of the Gospel message itself when attempting to communicate important things that really are true and that we really do need to take seriously.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@rsewell

YEC, generally speaking, absolutely and adamantly deny that the universe is billions of years old. There are a few who think the earth was created in an old universe, but those are rather off the beaten track

That is theolgoiczlly incorrect…some christians believe that, however it is not universal.

What is universal among YEC is the eternal God. It goes without saying that if God is eternal, then the universe is also the same. Only part of it is not…thats the part we see and interract with.

Even science makes the above a very logical conclusion and it is harmonious with the bible theme…so no twisting of scripture is required

[rsewell (RON SEWELL)]

@adamjedgar

What is universal among YEC is the eternal God. It goes without saying that if God is eternal, then the universe is also the same.

Not so. God is eternal, but also transcendent. The universe does not share His attributes.

It makes communication difficult if you make up definitions nobody else, including YEC organizations, uses. Common usage for “universe” is all of space, matter and energy in our physical reality. The term does not apply to the supernatural.

Lisle - Answers in Genesis - The Age of the Universe

Since Adam was created on the sixth day of the creation week, we can conclude that the earth, the entire universe, and everything in it were created approximately 6,000 years ago.