Thank you , @Kendel for your thoughtful post, trying to push us to think about this question in the appropriate manner. I, too, have begun thinking about what this whole thread means, because I have a brother with whom I have difficulty discussing similar issues in a useful manner.
When I conseider the totality of what the different posters are saying, both in this thread and elsewhere, I am struck by how much we believe that is either the same, or very similar, expressed in a different way. And I am also struck by how much we talk past each other, presuming that we know what the other person means or believes because we interpret the words used as if each other person uses those same words in exactly the same way we use those words.
@St.Roymond I will start with a comment from you on one specific piece of a post from me, because I think it is relevant to the issue of talking correctly with YECs, and because I am certain that you will take my comments in the manner they are intended: Suggestion, something to think about, and you will certainly have to tweak the details, but you might even get some value from hearing what I have to say, and if you donât find value, you can accept that I have a different viewpoint, and maybe my viewpoint is OK for me even if it isnât the same as yours.
I said that I accept the possibility that God created the universe 6000 years ago, with every single sub-atomic particle in exactly the same place as it would heve been if the universe was created in a Big Bang. You (@St.Roymond) replied that you would say that makes God deceptive. I have to just slightly change that, to say, I believe, if in truth the YECs are right, which we cannot prove one way or the other by observation of what really happened, then God had a reason, a real purpose, for creating the universe such that it appears that He is deceptive; and that reason has got to be really important, because God is Love. Now, to be clear about what I believe, I think it is much more likely that God created the universe in the Big Bang. However, I donât know that, only God knows for sure, and I also believe that it is not an issue that is essential for salvation whether someone believes in a 6000 year old universe, or believes in a Big Bang somewhere around 14 billion years ago.
Another topic of signiticant discussion and much argument with both sides actually much more in agreement than in direct opposition is the question of how much control does God exert in our world. @RichardG made a good point a few posts back:
Richard, this is a very good, and important point. The problem with understanding Godâs control comes when we forget how He designed this universe: Over 10 to the 30th power atoms in a single human being, no single atom âcontrolsâ how the whole being works. And we donât have any way of knowing the detailed state of any electron bound to any one of those atoms. But the whole works very predictably on the scale of the human: Accurate predictions of how the aggregates of atoms will perform, without even considerig the specific behavior of any single specific atom.
I am quite sure that Godâs promise that, âAll things work together for goodâ is actually quite similar. I donât read this as God promising that every single thing will, in and of itself, be good for me. I do trust that God knows all the other things that have happened, are happening, and will happen (and I believe He tweaks things a bit when He knows it is appropriate - by this I mean miracles, or God acting outside of the rules that normally determine how the universe operates), and will make those things all lead to what He knows He wants me to experience.
The specific issue you are pointing out here is really another example of how unstated assumptions can lead to serious misinterpretations of what people say. From what I am reading, I am certain that you (Richard) have a different interpretation in detail of what it means that God controls everything that happens in the world He created than do most of the rest of us commenting in this thread. I specifically appreciate your distinction between knowing that something happened, and making it happen. I do believe that God lets us make real choices in this world, that really do have real consequences. I also believe, as Dale comments frequently, that God, existing outside of this created universe, knows everything that has happened in it, everything that is happening, and everything that will happen. I believe that He has used this knowledge to fit together a universe that fully meets His purposes for creating it, and for creating us in this universe. Those purposes most certainly do include allowing us to take actions in this world that do have consequences in this world. I am certain that we do have free will, and that really means something. However, I believe that God also knows what choices we all have made, are making, and will make, and does do a bit of tweaking, whether it was by placing a single quark just one nanometer different as the Big Bang was starting (God knowing that that minute difference would lead to exactly what He wanted almost 14 billion years later, with no further external influence from Him), or whether God actually shifted something in my head just as I was deciding what to do, so that the totality of all the things happening around me leads to good results (for His purposes, not necessarily for what I think is good for me!) for me.
Another significant point, clearly demonstrated by the fact that there are substantially different viewpoints being expressed in this thread about evolution, is that God created a universe where it is not able to be distinguished by observation what God has âcausedâ by setting up the initial conditions, and establishing the laws of physics by which His universe operates, and what God has caused by direct intervention in the processes that are occurring in the universe.
All of this leads me to agree enthusiastically with @Kendel that we really need to think about what we are trying to accomplish by our discussions. If we are really trying to help people to come to a better relationship with God, and with other people, we cannot be just trying to prove that our way of understanding God is the only right way. God does want a personal relationship with each of us. He just doesnât want us to be so caught up in our own understanding that we donât grant Him the right to relate to other humans in a different way than He relates to us.
