The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 16:33
What part of every is giving you difficulty?
That might be, just maybe, a theological question that science is not equipped to address? What did you learn about God’s sovereignty in your extensive science education? But that was forty years ago and science is different now.
That would be correct.
I suspect it is psychological projection. Creationists enforce a dogmatic adherence to a set belief, so they project that onto scientists.
And it bleeds over (or gushes, in some cases) into all kinds of conspiracism.
Richard, I’d hope you’d recognise that this kind of thing is a very tired strawman that many of us have heard time and time again. And hearing it time and time again gets very boring.
Providence and soverignty doesn’t deny human agency, because God is at work in our free choices and working out his will through our free decisions (cf. my early analogy about the bins). You may not agree with that particular theological conceptualisation, but that does not necessarily mean it is wrong. Incredulity, as I’m sure you would agree, has never been a test of orthodoxy.
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Chew on God’s omnitemporality a while. There is what should be an awesome (and delightful, but sometimes hard) mystery in how God works in his providence, orchestrating the myriads of timings and placings for events to fall out the way they do for his children. Maggie was just lucky, right?
You do not, however, recognize the difference between the scientific meaning and a theological one. Theologically, the word is meaningless with respect to God who is sovereign over all things. He is sovereign over storms on Galilee (including raindrops and clouds, air molecules and wind) AND ‘random’ molecular mutations in DNA.
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I dissagree.
If God exists, scientifically the space around him must also exist…and that is the universe! I do not think that you are using the term transcendence appropriately…the bible talks at great length about Gods throne, heaven. Even science suggests that there may be parallel universes…time and space outside that of our own. I belive that this is likely true and that it is the domain of God and heaven.
you raise an important objection and this is one of the fundamental issues with the theology of TEism…it begins to struggle with explaning the nature of God…does he actually interact with us or are we essentially on our own. Genesis 2 states
> 7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.d
the above scripture clearly describes a God actively invovled in the bringing to life of Adam and Eve…he came down close and breathed the breath of life into Adams nostrils…then Adam became a living being!
IT does not adequately explain who is causing the evil around us. Some TEists even go so far as to say God is the cause of evil…he started it. That is an unbiblical position. One cannot claim that giving humanity free will is also giving us evil. Adam and Eve were not given evil, it corrupted them via trickery (the bible is very specific about this). I think the story of Adam and Eve demonstrates that God was actually rather open about “choice”…he made it quite clear from the beginning that they had the option to choose wisely…he warned them about the fallen Lucifer lurking in their world (“of any tree you shall eat but not of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”)
I meant the “I am the incarnation of the god Hercules” part, not the “strangled via a conspiracy involving your own bodyguards and mistress” part.
Oh that. 
I thought strangling politicians sounded like a good idea.
The space around him?! That’s a novel idea. You are imputing some kind of physicality to him.
Your vaunted great theological understanding is missing something basic: you leave out an important concept that the Bible does not need to talk at great lengths about (it is articulated in one short verse by Jesus himself):
“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:24
Given this outlook, why would you harbor any objection to conventional cosmology, geology, and biology?
Technically this is just all of Christiainity that struggles with this - the only thing that would distinguish “TEists” from all the rest is the fact that they also happen to embrace science as a great way to help understand how creation itself works and how it developed. As far as “What is the nature of God …”, welcome to the ages-old intellectual theologies of Christianity writ large. None of these curiosities had to wait until evolution was on the scene to suddenly be awakened. And when they began to be engaged with enlightenment thinking (for better and worse) - that also predated evolution by centuries as well.
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Yes–one could even say it’s the nature of all religions to struggle with that. Good point.
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Are you really going to claim that there is no such thing as chance because the Bible says so?
I am not sure that I dare argue in case it damages your views of God.
But then again you have no respect for YECs so why should I respect your views of chance?
Before I have the time to construct the response you might like to consider whether you will dare look at it.
Richard
This kind of talk does very little to further the conversation. It is also not going to win you many sympathetic ears. Disagreeing with a person’s beliefs is not the same as disrespecting the person, after all.
I will agree that the Bible states that chance does not exist. It is a fundamental part of Hebrew philosophy. But, so is the 7 day creation.
You appear to be setting the bible against reality. Which is what you accues of YECs.
Chance exists. That is not my opinion it is fact. Here are some Scientific papers on the subject
The science of chance and randomness
The science of chance
And there just so happens to be a BBC 4 program on the subject (what are the chances!)
Tails you win
One Biblical side note. When Jesus recounted the story of the Good Samaritan both the Levire and the Priest “happened” to be passing. There was no guidance from God just a collision of two events that was not planned (As near chance as the Bible gets)
I should not need to go any further. Just to say that either
The Bible is wrong and chance exists
or
You have misinterpreted what the bible means.
As you do not respect my theology I will not offer an alternative at this time.
Richard
Footnote
You clearly have not followed the discussions I have had with @Dale . His opinion of me is very clear. However, I believe Christ when He states that we risk swimming with a millstone if we put a stumbling block in any believer’s way. That should clarify my previous post.
You talked a lot about God’s sovereignty in what I quoted above, but then you claim that he is not sovereign over everything, including raindrops and clouds. Was Jesus not sovereign over the raindrops and clouds (not to mention the air molecules involved in the wind) during the storm on the Sea of Galilee? Does chance apply to God?
There is a difference between sovereignty and control. Charles is now our sovereign but he has almost no control over his kingdom.
Are governed by the Laws of Nature that God ordained and are therefore under His sovereignty but not His direct control
Genesis 2: 2 states that God finished His work. You have disregarded most of Genesis 1 perhaps you will allow this?
God finished His creation. He does not have to continually tinker or adjust. It is as He ordained, self-regulating, according to His sovereignty and design.
Miracles are exceptions. There are those here who do not think that miracles contradict the laws of nature. Of course God can control the weather, but that does not mean He either has to, or does (outside miracles)
That is not a simple question
Does God allow chance? Yes, it is part and parcel of His creation and integral to personal freedom and choice.
For instance. I sell tools and hardware but the nuts bolts and screws are just random from people’s sheds. I do not buy packs from a wholesaler (usually) Whether I have what a customer wants is absolutely by chance. There is no control by me let alone God. And there is no reason why God would ensure that the right nail was available at any one time. Furthermore, I often sell out of particular items. God would not be interested who bought them and who was too late. There is no reason for Him to. That leaves it to… chance!
God’s purpose does not rely on chance. Which is why I criticise the traditional view of evolution. That would appear to be using chance to create humanity.
God can, and probably does overrule chance situations. The Ephod being a biblical example. But whether He does? That is more for belief and or conjecture.
Now we reach my opinions. Take them or leave them
I think you need to temper your views on how much God controls things. He does not need to control the minutia. Chance is often nothing more that a combination of unrelated events coinciding or interacting: unplanned and uncontrolled. Illness, accidents, so-called acts of God, are outside of God’s direct influence, not because He can’t but because He doesn’t (By His choice)
What you are claiming is closer to the “New World” of Revelation and prophecy. Then God will both dictate and control. But that is to come. It is not now.
Richard