Great answer [@Christy]. Truly. I do think there’s something special around the Exile. Some remarkable, unprecedented humanist thinking emerged at that cultural crossroads.
When I responded to you @Klax that it sadly happens everyday I was thinking that being fallen is something that happens in every human life time in that we all reach the point where we recognize what we ought to do but also recognize we have options which might gratify us more in the short term. In the same way when we recognize a calling to serve the general good we do - in Christian parlance - become image bearers. So we are all sinners in that we will at least sometimes choose to enjoy that which gratifies ourselves alone without regard to the general good.
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That sounds like you think that for Christians all gratification without conscious regard for ‘the general good’ is sin.
I’m not sure. I hadn’t drawn that conclusion. What do you think?
Definitely not. I’m allowed to smell the roses without any guilt feelings. 
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Something that I’m pretty sure that most if not all unbelievers, and many Christians as well, fail to consider is that thinking wrong thoughts about God is sin, contrary to Job:
When we are talking about God’s justice, maybe we should include that in our considerations.
Apparently not if they inspire any incorrect thoughts about God – according to you.
Of course I don’t agree with your claim. Thinking wrong thoughts is not a sin. Bad habits of thought is another matter – those can be extremely self-destructive. But… maybe your use of the word “wrong” meant a little more than just incorrect.
(The NIV has it wrong: it says from the heart.)
That is a ‘what if’ logical fallacy – there are several names for it.
Of course they can be. What is covetousness? Can you do that without thought? How about lust? You can always decide what you what you are paying attention to – it is a continuous moral decision that we are making.
YES! can be. Exactly my point. It is the difference between and errant thought and a bad habit.
It is not simply thinking that you would like the same things as someone else has. That can lead in different directions. One direction is to make some effort to earn or build such things yourself. That is not a bad thing. The wrong direction is in the attitude of entitlement – thinking that such things should be yours without earning and building them.
Is the physiological response a sin? No. Is it the thought that this person is attractive? No. Just like with covetousness it is not just a thought that is sinful but when it becomes a persistent habit. The problem with habits is that they become a kind of programming which controls you. It erodes your freedom of will and occupies your mind in a way that precludes better things.
You can only decide when you see the alternatives. It is such a decision that stops a thought from becoming a habit.
Didn’t say it was. But dwelling on it is.
You contradict yourself. First you say is not, and then you say can be. Your point exactly.
I would identify the Fall with the Big Bang; that is, it is a fall of Creation rather than just of humanity.
Maybe ‘the fall’ is a human construct. God’s intended purpose in creating the world was to was not to create a perfect one – his purpose was not thwarted. It was a two creations model from the get-go, and the first one was subjected to futility on purpose, from its very start:
Here’s how I reconcile evolution with the fall. Adam is a Hebrew word that means humanity, Eve is the Hebrew word that means giver of life or just life. They are archetypal figures representing humanity both men and women. They are created in the image of God which in the ancient Near East has to do with the right to rule of God’s behalf. They are given dominion over the earth and told to subdue it. The earth is not unfallen as the OP suggests, this is not a concept put forth by the Bible, read Joshua John Van Ee’s “Death in the garden.” As a matter of fact the earth outside of the Garden of Eden is chaotic and needs subduing so it too can be like Eden. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents the choice God gives humanity on how they will rule the earth. They can choose to rule it by God’s wisdom and choose life or they can choose to rule the earth by their own wisdom and seize wisdom for themselves choosing death in doing so. The devil comes along and lies to life saying that choosing to rule by her own own wisdom will make her wise like the gods. She eats the fruit and so does her husband and so in choosing to live by their own wisdom and not God’s they are banished from God’s presence into the chaotic world barred from the tree of life. This is not paradise lost but paradise forfitted. The entire rest of Genesis 1-11 shows the results of choosing good and evil for themselves. The world spirals completely out of control. But one day a descendant of the woman will be wounded on his heel but will crush the head of the devil. The messiah Jesus Christ.
It was not two people who fell in a Garden it was HUMANITY AS A WHOLE that fell by choosing to live by their own wisdom rather than God’s wisdom and the world is chaos because of this. When did this happen, I don’t know probably when mankind first met God. Adam (humanity) was formed outside of the Garden (from dust a Near Eastern motif that states Adam was mortal from the beginning, his immortality in the story comes from eating from the tree of life) and then put into the Garden to dwell with God, the Garden being a high place where heaven and earth are one and where mankind dwells with God, a symbol of heaven and earth being united as one and mankind dwelling with God.
This is basic Ancient Near Eastern symbolism and a basic literary treatment of the story, and it amazes me that people are stuttering around like clucked chickens trying to explain this. Please in the name of Jesus Christ who we all profess to worship do some research!
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In other words… we should not think for ourselves and pursue things we value like love, justice, and beauty but simply obey the religionists who claim to speak for God, whether they tell us to murder witches and heretics or tell us to live a stark empty loveless joyless life according to their dictates. It is the sort of thing which amply explains why so many say that religion is disease and blight upon the human race which should be eradicated.
It is certainly my choice to tell the religionist like this to take their so called wisdom and go jump off a cliff. If this were the only way of understanding the Bible, then clearly I would be an atheist. I am a Christian because it is not.
Point out where I said ANY of those things that you are assuming me to say? Where did I say that we should listen to everyone who claims to speak for God? What are you talking about about with joyless lives, murdering witches, and heretics and the rest of your strange rants? What does this have to do with anything at all? Where did I say that we should not seek love, justice, and beauty? Do you think that all of these things are a part of the wisdom of God?
And I don’t see or hear any God demanding obedience, it is only people claiming to speak for God that I see or hear talking about the need for obedience. They are the ones greedy for power. God has all the power He needs already. As for obeying the God who actually created people with intelligence and a desire for love, justice, beauty, and wisdom, I see more obedience to the creator in people who use that which God gave them rather than in those who stupidly follow those harping and babbling about God with all the religions they push on other people.
The main point here is that I see no merit in this way you are pushing the idea of people following along rather than thinking for themselves. There is no divide between good and evil in that. I see far more evil in the history of mankind when people follow along without thinking for themselves. I am a Christian because I see a different meaning in those two trees. In the tree of life I see a relationship with God where a real understanding of good and evil is learned from experience like everything else. The other tree is where we simply assume authority for dictating good and evil for that is something which can be seized like taking an fruit from a tree. We certainly don’t get knowledge from eating a fruit, and we don’t see any increase of wisdom in A&E in the story – nor to we see any great assertion of independence or doing things their own way. What we see in the A&E of the story is fear, shame, and the attempt to blame everyone and everything but themselves for their own mistake. And how did this lead to Cain killing his own brother? Was it creativity and thinking for himself that was the problem or was it from blaming his brother for his own failure just as Adam and Eve had blamed others?
It is where I see this obsession with obedience leading. I am reminded of the words of Stephen Weinberg: “With or without religion , good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” He was wrong because history demonstrates that any ideology can do this. And yet religion IS among the ideologies that can and have done this quite a bit. And in both I see the same basic thing where people are convinced to follow someone else and their idea of the right thing to do rather than their own wisdom and conscience.
The inclination for love, justice, and beauty are things we find inside ourselves, and the repression of these is what we often see in religions which makes the Bible all about obedience and following the commands which supposedly come from God.
Interesting that you say the fall is a “man-made doctrine”.
This if somewhat off topic but I will ask the question anyway: Is Satan real? Or is Satan a man-made doctrine also? Is Satan simply a metaphorical idea, and not a real being or entity?
This is not a “trick” question. I would really like to know what the Biologos (and your) position is on this.
First, be very clear that my opinion is not Biologos’ position on anything. They may or may not be the same or similar, but my opinion is my opinion alone. In fact, anything you read on the forum is the opinion of the participants, not of Biologos. Now, what you read on the home page and and in the articles are usually consistent with Biologos positions, but even there, sometimes there are guest articles by people with views that differ from an official position of Biologos.
Regarding your questions, I think that Satan is a real entity, though the common view of him has been distorted by extra-biblical sources to where it is confusing as to what his form and nature is. He also has a metaphorical aspect, in that our fleshly evil desires are seen as coming from Satan even though we must own them as our own and not blame some outside force. However, I accept that there is a lot I do not know and accept that I may be wrong about some things I think I know, including a lot about Satan and demons in general. Such things as is the satan in Job and perhaps even the garden of Eden the same as Satan of The Revelation of John? Where did Satan come from, did God create him?
Since you are asking, @Medicodon, what do you think of those questions you posed? What do you think about The Fall? How does it affect your personal responsibility for your sins? Was Adam’s sin the cause of our sin, or just represents the first?
So often questions asked without explaining your own opinions are assumed to be just “gotcha” questions, rather than a sincere reaching out for understanding, so forgive me if I seem a bit guarded. After all,Satan is lurking at the door.
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I see that you are physician also. I’m a 65 yo semi retired MD. (Board certirfied radiologist)
My undergraduate degree is in engineering. I became a Christian while in college.
I have believed in “intelligent design” for 45 years, since long before the term as currently used even existed. For example, the heart with it’s pacemaker and conducting system, one way heart valves, kidneys as chemical factories keeping your electrolytes within the necessary range, the brain with millions and millions of precise neuronal connections, etc etc etc. Personally, I think it is preposterous to even imagine that this is all the product of mutations and natural selection etc etc. Not to even mention the origin of life or abiogenesis. But like the Bible says “let every man be convinced in his own mind”.
I tend to read the Bible literally and let it speak for itself. Paul certainly seems to speak of the fall as a real historical event. Christ seems to speak of Satan as a real being.
I know that God’s ways are not my ways, and that God’s thoughts are not my thoughts. “As the heavens are higher than the Earth, so are God’s ways higher than my ways, and God’s thoughts higher than my thoughts…”
I rarely rarely post online. Over the years I have not found the usual snarky, smarter than you, belittling, tone of online conversations to be helpful in any way.
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