How do we Trust in God?

Faith & Science Conversation
21

I would alter the wording of that a bit.

We can never know God objectively. God is not something we can look at under a microscope or perform experiments on in controlled situations.

However we can know what God has told us about Himself and particularly what He chooses to value. Knowing anyone as a person is not about knowing their composition, basis for their existence, or circumstances like race, gender, or nationality. Knowing someone as a person is about knowing what they choose to value and what they choose to devote their time and energy to accomplishing. In this way, I think we can actually know God better than we know ourselves because unlike us, God’s choices are not so confused and contradictory.

2 Likes
22

I’m extremely glad I’m not the only one who feels this way. I always struggled with the fact there were so many denominations. But I think instead of following a denomination. Christianity is following a person. And that’s what we should focus on. Wether our “beliefs” are different I truly think God wants us to trust him more than anything. So I’m kinda guessing we just need to trust in the cross. Wether our views about God are correct or not.

3 Likes
23

Maybe you mean scientifically? We can know objective truths about him, which is what you say following:

24

Science is a standard of what objective means – that which is the same for everyone, providing a reasonable expectation that others should agree. Science does this because it is based on written procedures which give the same result no matter what you want or believe.

Choosing to believe God has told us about Himself in some book hardly makes that objective. That is the very opposite of what objective means. But remember, I also explain that the subjective is our basic access to reality and it is the objective which is the product of abstraction. So I am careful to stipulate that being objective does not make something more certain, all it ever adds is a reasonable expectation that others should agree. It is personal experience which adds the most conviction to what we believe. Sometimes the findings of science can even leave the scientists rather incredulous.

25

We understand the meaning of the words differently.
 

There is nothing in that definition that necessarily excludes everything besides scientific facts. There are other objective facts besides scientific ones or facts that can be scientifically demonstrated, E.g., that God exists is an objective fact, but not one that can be scientifically demonstrated. People may disagree whether or not it is true, but that does change the objective fact.

There are many objective facts that are true merely by definition. “I am a person”, “The sun is a star”, snd so on. (Oh look, Wikipedia used the same example. :slightly_smiling_face:):

26

Yes. Clarity and consistency is one of those differences.

And there was nothing in what I said which excludes everything besides scientific facts!!!

However there is in that definition you quoted very much which excludes someone’s claim of God telling us about Himself in some book. Just because WE feel the Bible is something other than fiction doesn’t make it facts or without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations. The irrefutable fact is that this is very much something which depends on religion, culture, personal feelings, let alone interpretations of that religion and its scriptures!

1 Like
27

First you cannot correctly use the words “Himself” and “He” as anything other than metaphors In the Greek the word “God” caries a male article but there is no indication it refers to a male. the English translation would be “The God”. And that is clear when we see that “God’s Divinity” carries a female article.

God asks us to follow the path of Righteousness in order to be granted eternal life. Sure we can say God is Good, but that is still not knowledge of God. Even in enlightenment, where there is Union with the Divine, there is still no knowing God. An element within a set, cannot know the set.

28

And humor. :grin:   [ETA: I neglected to add being wrong. :grin:]
 

Yes, we can. Even empirically. Ask Maggie, mentioned above.

1 Like
29

God asks us to trust in the work of Jesus on the cross to be granted eternal life. ‘Following the path of righteousness’, good works, is important, but it needs to be in conjunction with faith in Jesus.

30

Absolutely – I think if we did that we would see either fewer denominations, or more denominations willing to work with each other and collaborate on things. And it’s certainly worthwhile to try and develop beliefs that are as “correct” as we can get them, but when that takes over, we lose focus on what’s most important.

31
  1. This is a cubic meter of Absolute Space:
    Absolute Space 2
  2. This a cubic meter of some folks’ God:
    Absolute Space 2
  3. This is a cubic meter of Allah:
    Absolute Space 2
  4. This is a cubic meter of Brahman:
    Absolute Space 2
  5. This is a cubic meter of Consciousness;
    Absolute Space 2
  6. This is a cubic meter of Love, as in “God is Love”;
    Absolute Space 2 and
  7. This is a cubic meter of some folks notion of Spirit, as in “God is Spirit”.
    Absolute Space 2
  8. This is a cubic meter of Anaximander’s " ἄπειρον":
    Absolute Space 1

The Black Cube is black because the RGB number for no red is “0”, the RGB number for no Green is “0”, and the RGB number for no Blue is “0”.

32

How I trust God is due to the faithfulness of Christ, the elect, Jesus, saviour of all; that being the best good news possible.

33

This is the Christian faith, sure. But God is universal. I love Jesus and I value what he gave us very much. But I don’t accept that all I have to do is have faith in Jesus to be granted eternal life.

1 Like
34

No. This is bad news. I know and have known many evil people. Some of them believe (if they are truthful) that all you need is faith in Jesus and you’re saved. My mother was one such person. It never stopped her from being very hateful because it was all going to be washed away in the blood of Christ. So those who are evil have no reason not to continue to hurt others around them. I am sorry, but that is bad news.

1 Like
35

I don’t see the connection? The fact that self-declared, creedal Christians are as easily evil as anyone can be cannot touch Jesus’ infinite capacity to save us from ourselves in the transcendent, to deconstruct, therapy, reconstruct our being in Him. What’s wrong with that?

1 Like
36

What connection are you talking about?
The whole of Jesus’s ministry and that of ALL other prophets as well centers around ethics and morality. Why would they bother if everyone is going to be washed clean? Why would it matter a hoot to be ethical, moral?

This was “teaching” essentially given by the Romans, via the “apostle” Paul. The Romans committed mass murder in Palestine, but what the heck? Does it matter? They can simply declare that God said everyone gets saved. So why not go and do the worst crimes? It is all the same in the end according to the reasoning you are giving. She’s apples.

A person who deadens their conscience and does evil essentially darkens their soul. They have, by their own actions, put themselves in hell, eternal oblivion. God is not going to save them any more than he saved Satan. God booted him out of Heaven pronto.

37

They would do all that precisely because ethics and morality is important and they were beginning the program then already of washing people clean.

This is where the “us” and “them” separation in your mind especially leads you astray. You are still caught up in the delusion that all the serious evil in the world is “over there” in that psychopathic group of people and that you yourself and your friends are free of all that, and on the good side. The Pharisees and the scribes of Jesus’ day thought that way too - and Jesus quickly told them what he thought of their attitude - not that “evil people are really okay”, but that all the rest of you who imagine that you aren’t in the same straights before God - you’re in for a rude awakening.

Does this mean, then, that you’re imagining that evil really must be fun and attractive - and that the only reason not to rush in to it is because some kill-joy God wants to put a stop to all your fun? If that’s where our hearts are, then we show we are not yet saved by anybody’s criteria. You seem to be afraid that God might somehow be “tricked” into accepting psychopathic killers just because they managed to utter some right words or believe a correct thing or two in a right moment of earnestness. If indeed that’s all salvation is, then your Muslim faith (and the Christian faith too) are worthless trash. If that’s all it means to be saved (that I satisfied some formula - but otherwise remain filthy in my sin), then indeed … why bother? Such a god that is as you describe is not a god worth worshipping at all.

2 Likes
38

I disagree with you on all the point you have raised. And this sort of criticism has been leveled against me by many. However I do understand that many people have a concern, that being “will I be saved?” If they can move to believe that everyone will be saved, regardless of who they are and what they have done, then they surely will be saved. Unfortunately this line of thinking, while comforting, does harm as it helps promote evil, even thought it is unknowingly promoting evil.

Firstly if the prophets came to wash people clean then it was a sheer waste of time for God to have given anyone a conscience and love as well. Our conscience is a guiding light that God has given to help us stay on the Path of Righteousness. Without a conscience no one would understand the message of the prophets.

Furthermore, God gave us free will. Why so? Because together with a conscience we can be tested. If we are all going to be cleaned up, then what is the purpose of testing us?

If you are going to accuse me of an “us” and “them” separation then you are also going to have to accept that Jesus was also talking along the exact same lines. Jesus dressed down the scribes and the Pharisees on the grounds of their behavior. And he didn’t put his disciples in the same basket either Take a look at his words:
Matthew 23
verses
31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.

32Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

He didn’t say "hey guys, you are no different to my disciples here. You are all the same, made of the same stuff, capable of the same deeds given the right circumstances. But no worries, I am going to clean you up, so you can all sit side by side in Heaven. "

I KNOW that God loves me because I had a spiritual experience back in 1972-73 in which I was told that I was loved. And the proof is for me clear because God’s presence is with me always. And there have been other spiritual experiences since then as well. So I know with certainty that there won’t be any rude awakening.

Now, let me give you some information about evil and evil people.
In the words of my late husband who was inhumane, a psychopath.
“There may be any number of reasons to mess with and do harm to another person, but getting pleasure from seeing the other’s pain and suffering is always there.”
And I might add that he was a professor of chemistry, head of school for several years and highly respected by most people there. In no way was he obviously harmful to anyone else. I only found out when he came out of the closet and revealed to me that he was evil, as he said. It was only then that I saw his dark spirit

God won’t be tricked by anyone. But apart from that, it is the evil/ inhumane people who put themselves in hell, by their own actions, which they willfully choose to do.

If there is no “them” and “us” then anyone and everyone would be prepared to deaden their conscience and thereby do heinous crimes, most of them underhanded and unseen and mostly for fun, fun and games.

Are the following considerations?
Would all people create human pets out of others for ready reference should they ever need it?

Would all people punish others in relationship until they bend to their will? “Punish others” meaning adversely affect their heallth.

Would all people savage others in relationship (again meaning affect their health) for the sake of gaining power and influence to manipulate and control the other person?

39

You take this out context of everything Jesus said before about the religious people. It was not that they were especially criminal and doing evil to others.

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

The point Jesus makes is that the entitlement of those in religion can by itself change religion into something evil. The general problem is people thinking they are better than other people. Christian entitlement is the poison behind all evil done in the name of Christianity and Jesus – and Islam is no different.

And the point that Mervin is making is not that we are all the same. We all have the same degenerative illness that erodes our free will and tears down everything of good within us. A little bit like the law gravity we may have all different trajectories with some of us flying high and looking good while other crawl in dirt, but sin will bring us to the same fate in the end. And blinding ourselves to this will only make it worse. The only way out is for God reach down and take us in His hands.

1 Like
40

I think faith, the Greek word pistis you referenced, is about allegiance. I work in a minority language Bible translation project and the literal translation of the way they express faith in their language is “where your heart stands up” I think that’s a good mental image, if you think about what you put your faith in as standing up and being counted for what your whole self thinks is most important.

I think God makes himself knowable to people who want to encounter him. People encounter God in different places and different ways, because we aren’t all wired the same. Some people relate to God in the beauty of nature, some in intellectual theological study, some in serving others, some through artistic expression, some through activism on behalf of the vulnerable, some through spiritual disciplines like meditation and prayer. I don’t think there is a formula or a best way, and I have found that I often grow the most in my understanding of who God is when I get away from what is most familiar to me and try to learn from people who have encountered God in different ways than what I’m used to.

I struggle with faith when I get too deep in my own head. So I am most encouraged in my faith when I am intimately connected with other people’s stories of God’s faithfulness to them. When I start to feel cut off or numb in my own relationship with God, I try to get myself close to where other people are sensing God is working instead of trying to think or read my way out of my questions and doubts. But I’m sure every person has their own kind of holes they fall into and their own best practices for climbing toward the light again. There’s not really a recipe.

4 Likes