Well, here is the claim that is not supported by the Gospels. Gospels have Jesus promising answers to prayer and, per John 14:12 believers will do great works. In the context of Jonn 14:12 Jesus points to his miracles as a proof he is with God the Father. And the very next thing he says is whoever believes in him will do the works he is doing and even greater works. Now, as I was saying, Jesus did not have to make such a statement and yet he did make it.
I know Christians re-define the meaning of greater works to mean evangelizing, but this is cognitive dissonance to me. It puts Jesus on par with Mohammed and Joseph Smith whose followers are too doing the “greater works” than they . Also, one evangelical translation, NET Bible, says plainly “miraculous works” is what believers in him will be able to do.
I agree Christians believe in Jesus for eternal life and salvation from hell. But there is no reason, in my view, to trust a promise I can’t verify when a promise I can verify fails. Remember, same excuses that explain why you can’t move a mountain could explain why you need to spend eternity in hell too. (I.e. Wrong size faith, insufficient understanding of a promise, etc)
Also, I don’t think there are good reasons to consider Jesus “historical”. There are very suspicious statements about this in the Gospels. Firstly, per the GMark and GMatthew, Jesus starts his ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned and then killed. People seeing Jesus powers think he is risen John the Baptist. (Mark 6:14, Matthew 14:2). And this opinion allegedly remains as shown by Peters confession (Mark 8:27-30 and parallel passages, especially GLuke). Note that Jesus says to "not tell anyone about him. This makes no sense for a teacher to claim especially since he was already working big miracles and teaching large crowds . But this bit makes perfect sense to claim as Jesus’ words by his later followers, since it would explain why the Judeans or Gallileans may have never even heard of this teacher
Now youre making things up. Matthew 17:20 says:
“He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.””
So clearly the apostles’ faith is smaller than a mustard seed…
Hi Jay, sure I can respond. Sure, there were many issues but I choose a few to keep conversation pointed in the same direction. Otherwise things may become scattered and diluted.
But, per your request I’ll broaden the range. Warning, this can turn into a long post.
As a child, I believed in the eternal hell. And, what’s worse, at one point I became scared of committing an unpardonable sin after becoming familiar with a passage about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This realization probably led to my panic attacks. What frightened me, is that I had no hope before God and could not get help from fellow people (I believed). What words of consolation can the preachers tell me? If God himself thinks I can’t be forgiven, what does it matter if preachers can still offer hope? With time these feelings subsided (perhaps by being buried in my subconscious to give me trouble later, I’m 40 yo this year and have lived with anxiety for almost 20 years now, but I digress). However, I gained this hyper alertness to theology. I started reading the Bible and picking up various teachings. When I came to the US, in 1991, I thought that God smiled on our family. We emigrated to a Christian country. When I sneezed, some were saying… “God bless you”, money had “In God we trust”, etc… Things were good. I started listening to a Christian radio and a preacher named “Tony Evans” caught my attention. He taught about justification by faith apart from works, eternal life that cannot be lost and I loved it. And it was a Biblical teaching too. I think I was 16-18yo by that time. I still believed in hell (which troubled me), but I also believed that I was saved from it through faith in Jesus Christ.
Until I started preaching in my church. And participating in the adult Bible study classes. I found out that in addition to the faith in Jesus, repentance from sin is also required. Sure enough, Jesus himself taught this. Right there in the Synoptic Gospels. Repent and believe the Gospel. What is repentance? Hard to tell for sure, but likely has to do with a change of attitude and behavior. An adulterer needs to stop comitting adultery and believe in Jesus to be saved. Antinomianism is a heresy, etc… And so my troubles rekindled. I was a teenager with all of the normal hormones (luckily I loved the opposite sex, and was not gay) and so I “struggled with lust” or sexual arousal by beautiful women. As Jesus taught (and who could tell whether I or anyone interpreted him correctly?), if you lust after a woman who is not your wife, you have committed an adultery in your heart. Could you be saved if you are living in adultery? Many Christians don’t think you can and now I was not sure again.
So, I again had a problem. How can I be sure that I am saved from hell? I believed in Jesus, but I also sinned. We all sin, of course, but some sins are deliberate and others you can’t do anything about. Can a willful and deliberate sinner be considered saved? Only after repentance and how can such a one repent?
The realization hit me. There was eternal hell, with a very unclear way out. I was back to square one almost. Having very conflicted emotions, some days I rejoyced at the thought of believing the Gospel, other times in despair over not having repented of my sins. (Curiously, Gospel of John, written with the purpose of people believing in Jesus and having life in his name does not even once mention repentance). I thought… “how can a LOVING God, create Hell and not provide a clear way out?” And also, how can a loving God not communicate with people who are genuinely seeking a relationship with him? I may be writing all of this matter of factly, but please don’t misunderstand, I spend hours agonizing in my emotions, crying out to God for a sign, anything he could offer as a proof of me being his child. After all, God loved me, right? Would a loving being let his child be in agony? I know I couldn’t stand by if my children, easily observable by me, were seeking me with tears, and, allegedly, I’m not as loving as God. And yet, this God will send people to hell for not having a relationship with him too.
What kind of a good God is this? Doesn’t communicate with believers in him, lets believers in him suffer in doubt and punishes believers of other religions and atheists in eternal hell?
In my search for the true Gospel, I started reading Calvinists and Arminians and Free Grace preachers. I learned that Arminians were right and Calvinists too, and the Free Gracers. The Bible does not present a single path, it offers support for every interpretation. I found that God, in the Bible, even admits to changing his mind. For example, 1 Sam 2:30 “Therefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.
Did you catch this? A promise was made that members of your family would serve the Lord forever but NOW, forget it. Promise no longer applies. New rules. What kind of a loving being goes back on his promises? How can anyone be “standing on the promises of God”?
Sorry, this is a bit long and talkative, but I tried to paint a broader picture
Sorry, you are incorrect. When you have a moment, please compare Matt and Mark’s Gospels. Even evangelical scholars agree that Matt had a Mark’s gospel and was editing/changing it (aka synoptic problem). Marks “no faith” equal’s Matthew’s “little faith”
Mark 4:40 And he said to them, “Why are you cowardly? Do you still not have faith?” 41 They were overwhelmed by fear and said to one another, “Who then is this? Even the wind and sea obey him!”
Matt. 8:26 But he said to them, “Why are you cowardly, you people of little faith?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it was dead calm. 27 And the men were amazed and said, “What sort of person is this? Even the winds and the sea obey him!”
It’s clear Matthew does not like disciples having NO faith, so he makes them having little faith instead. There are other examples such as this.
Secondly, mustard seed is, per Jesus, the smallest of all seeds those people had. Obviously, the faith the size of a mustard seed is an allegory for the tiniest amount of faith. It defeats the purpose to argue you must have larger faith when already, the smallest amount is all that you need to move mountains.
Thirdly, you still have the problem of your salvation. You must believe in Jesus to be saved, but how do you know your faith is the right size? And, it’s not just you. Every single Christian in your church and in your world. Not one has the right amount of faith? Again, imagine I made the same promise as Jesus made. Would you worship me as God after my failure to deliver?
You claim that you were raised (evangelical?) christian, and in light of that I find it hard to reconcile your statements as anything less than deliberate misrepresentation of Christian doctrine as it serves your rhetorical ends.
If Christians are wrong then there is no Hell. Why would an athiest (or nonchristian) feel the need to be saved from something they don’t believe in in the first place? Of course that is absurd. Christians dont (or shouldn’t) be christians because they fear hell, they follow Christ because he is the truth. If his message had been that we were all going to hell, he would still be the truth. The claims of jesus are not what our faith is based on. If our faith were simply based on claims, then you are correct in stating that anyone can claim anything and we would, by the same logic, believe it. THAT IS WHY WE DONT HAVE FAITH IN CLAIMS ALONE. We have faith in Jesus claims ONLY because of his historical life and resurection. If you insist, when YOU resurect from a brutal and unsurvivable death, THEN I will consider trusting your “promises”.
You appear to be operating under the patronizing assumption that religious people are idiots who just want to believe in a fantasy. That is understandable given that it is the “party line” of militant athiests, but if you believe that you aren’t interested in Truth.
Now this is a worthwhile discussion. There is a lot of evidence that can be looked at, to determine what jesus DID. We can discuss it, once we can move on from your prior arguement based on your admittedly invalid “testing” of Jesus statements, and recognition of the absurdity of your claim that Christians follow Jesus merely because of what he SAID rather than what he DID.
There is a world of difference between knowing what the Bible says and what evangelicals teach. Can you offer me a promise of Jesus applicable to today that can be tested? I think you realize that I can be proven divine by making the same promises Jesus made as long as you are willing to stick to the same excuses. But you won’t admit it. And it’s fine if it works for you. Does not work for me and those who have walked away from the faith.
Secondly, if you truly have a relationship with Jesus, what can you tell me about this Jesus that I cannot read in the Bible? If I claim to have a personal relationship with Obama but can only tell you what I read about him from the books, do I really have a relationship with Obama?
Thirdly, it seems, from your statements, that my arguments are getting to you and making your angry in some way. Believe me, I understand this feeling. I am not suggesting that Christians are stupid in any way. I am suggesting Christians that remain in the faith have explanations for staying that do not work for those like me. My dad is a pastor of the church I attend (yep, still attend). He claims the promise of answered prayers and Matt. 17:20 only applied for the disciples. It is not the view you take but it is the view that works for him. But not for me. It does not make him stupid, just makes him clinging to a reason that does not work for me or others in my position.
In case you missed it the first two times:
JESUS PROMISES ARE NOT “PROOFS”. NO ONE CAN “PROVEN DIVINE” BY SAYING WORDS. THAT IS ABSURD. AND A STRAWMAN.
Are you saying then that you don’t know what the bible says? Either you DONT know what Christians believe, or you do and ignore it in favor of absurd distortions of christian beliefs which you can easily knock down.
You want to test a promise? The bible promises suffering, hardship and persecution (in the world) for followers of Jesus:
John 15:18-20
2 Timothy 3:12
Most people who have a personal relationship with Obama would still learn many new things about him in books written by those closest to him. As an individual I only have individual experiences of interaction to have a relationship. No private revelation is required. (Nor, obviously, would my claim of such revelation provide you with any evidence of a genuine relationship. So you are asking me for non-proof based on a false premise.)
If you think you are getting to me, that is a sign of your own arrogance.
Are you sure it is him clinging so much as you looking for any reason to reject? How did you first come to question your faith?
I am confused how you can claim that Jesus promises are not proofs. A failed promise is a proof Jesus can’t be true to his word or he can’t keep the Bible from being corrupted. After all, Jesus could be powerless to stop false rumors about him. Or he couldn’t care less. None of these options make Jesus divine being as portrayed by Christians.
If Jesus is loving God, he would know that people are going to cling onto his every word and believe this is absolute truth. Yet, I know Jesus’ words are not true and the experience of every believer I know proves this. I don’t even need to test it personally. I can observe a genuine believer and find they can’t move a mountain. And every church and ministry needs money.
As to the persecution, I would argue Jesus should have known that teaching people to kill believers in other Gods or those spreading another teaching is never a good idea. Later Christians have done persecuting themselves. Ironically, few Christians in America today think they are persecuting homosexuals, even though if the Christians were treated as homosexuals are, Christians would claim persecution.
ps. i don’t mind the use of all caps. Although I don’t see much reason to go in circles and re-hashing past statements either
The issue here is your interpretation of the promise. (Eg. I should be able to get $1M when I pray for it.) Faith =/= mere Belief. This isn’t the MATRIX, where you can bend reality by believing you can. Walking in Faith requires being aligned with Gods plans. But that doesnt make sense to you.
Aparently it makes more sense to you to interpret it out of any larger context and with no critical thinking whatsoever. You want to believe that Jesus was so dumb that he (and whoever sneakily modified the new testament) meant these statements to be interpreted as you do. Perhaps they figured that no one would ever actually test their unconditional guarantee of free and endless money/healing/granted wishes… you really think that?
The “promises” are TESTS, not magic formulas. You failed the test. Thats all.
Oh, I’m sorry. I thought Jesus was the same God as YHWH of the Old Testament. You don’t believe this? I don’t always know what kind of a Christian I get to talk to.
Also, see this in Matt 18:6 “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea.
Such a loving advice above. I mean, obviously a pure love is talking there.
This is what you claim, but the New Testament includes God’s revealed will for humanity. I find that the same Christians who claim to be following the Bible have no problems making things up to remain believers. You can go to any church and claim that in Matt. 17:22, “Nothing will be impossible” really means “lots of things will be impossible” and you will never be accused of twisting the Bible. In fact, you’ll be told that you are interpreting it correctly!. It’s only gays that are Christians who are twisting the Bible.
In most Christian churches, they say the Bible is God’s revealed word. The Bible, they say, is God’s will for humanity. God loves you (and me) and wants us to be saved (from his hell) and be in heaven with him for all eternity. The Christian preachers claims this is true because they read this in the New Testament.
These same Christians have to back track and make excuses for failed promises. The same book that tells us God loves us and wants to save us, also teaches us that NOTHING will be impossible to us if we believe. The same book that tells us faith will save, also claims that faith will get us ANYTHING we ask for in prayer.
Notice this gem in Matt. 21:18 Now early in the morning, as he returned to the city, he was hungry. 19 After noticing a fig tree by the road he went to it, but found nothing on it except leaves. He said to it, “Never again will there be fruit from you!” And the fig tree withered at once. 20 When the disciples saw it they were amazed, saying, “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” 21 Jesus answered them, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen. 22 And whatever you ask in prayer, if you believe, you will receive.”
Here is another issue. If I tell people… ASK ME ANYTHING, people understand that I am a mere mortal. I can’t regrow limbs, and I can’t make them millionaires. I can maybe help them cross the road, change their flat tire or do anything that is within my ability. Jesus, allegedly, is an Almighty God with NO logical limitations (i.e he can’t make a square circle for obvious reasons) and when Jesus says to ask him anything and he’ll do it, then practically nothing is off the table. $1MM is a peace of cake for anyone who can speak things into existence. And yet, nothing happens. Heck, Jesus won’t even change your flat tire when you need it.
At this point, I cannot be convinced Jesus is real short of his appearance. I’m done believing and following lies.
I am open to the evidence. It’s possible that no God’s exist. It’s possible that God exists. It’s possible that Satan is the real God. It’s possible there are many Gods. I don’t know enough to be certain, so I’m open to the evidence. It’s possible there are aliens on Mars that are very good at hiding, but, until evidence for such aliens turns up, I am not justified in the belief in their existence. It is the same with God/Gods/Deities.
But I come from a Christian background, where a God was specifically defined. Such as One being, with three persons sharing the nature of God. This God was defined as absolute and unconditional love, omni-present, all powerful, a God who cannot lie. Hence, after finding the contradictions I’ve outlined in my posts, I concluded this specific God cannot exist. It’s possible he was misrepresented in the Bible, sure, but then he is not all powerful (to keep his message from corruption) or maybe not all loving (i.e. does not care that people suffer as a result of the teachings).
