Absolutely. A big one… They don’t see Christ reflected in those they know to identify as Christians.
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I found the same myself when I was discussing it on Facebook over the weekend. I tend to take the RATE project as my starting point because the way it is being misreported illustrates exactly what I’m talking about. One of my YEC friends (who has in the past described us OECs as “faithless so-called Christians”) seemed to soften up quite a lot when I told him about it.
Another one said to me, when I told him about accelerated nuclear decay, that it had to be something sent in to “discredit creationism.” In other words, some kind of atheist parody like Last Thursdayism. I get the impression he found it quite sobering when I told him that as the conclusion of RATE, it was the crown jewels of YEC scientific research.
I then followed up a couple of days later by posting a link to an interview on the Christian Post with Hugh Ross of Reasons to Believe, explaining why we don’t need all the young earth baggage in order to be faithful Christians.
Finally, I posted a link to a set of blog posts by Randy Isaac of the American Scientific Affiliation explaining what integrity in science looks like. I’m quite frankly disgusted by the LSDYEC portrayal of the RATE project as a success. Given their own admission of serious unresolved problems, it’s flat-out, blatant lying.
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Could you point me to some source with an insightful analysis of everything that’s wrong with the RATE project? I have heard lots of bad things about it, but I would just like to know more details.
Randy Isaac has written a fairly clear summary of the project itself and the problems with it in his article, Assessing the RATE Project. There are also a whole lot more links to various discussions about it that go into more detail here.
Jeff Zweerink of Reasons to Believe has also written some comments on it here.
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Wow. There are people who actually believe this?
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I did some checking on the biggest 100 churches in the US. Almost all are Evangelical - only a handful are “Mainstream”. Most got big because they had a strong message and worship experience. Almost all believed in inerrancy/infallibility of scripture, although a few add “in the original writings.” I could not find anything on their websites that any showed any openness to accepting the scientific view of the age of the earth or evolution. From what I have seen, a number of them and a large number of smaller churches (at least outside of the Northeast and Northwest) lean towards right-wing conservative, which in aspects doesn’t seem to be Biblical or Christ’s approach. I would consider many of those to have a lot of non-Biblical ‘Churchianity.’ I think that is a bigger problem than ‘liberalism.’
To be sure, on some things, some Christians, especially younger ones, tend to have a few views that are outside the Biblical perspective. But I think that most yearn for a genuine full-throated (as opposed to watered-down) faith and worship experience.
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Does it have to be either or? Worship can help people feel closer to God and closer to the Christian community. Faith (actually I expressed ‘strong message’), can convict people and can give them practical advice how to live out their faith, besides teaching theology and ethics. I think many young people (as well as a lot of other people) yearn for that.
Personally, I feel that we also need more small groups where people can open up about their life, share their struggles, fellowship, and discuss scripture. I picture that being more like the early church and a model that could work well with students in college.
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What C. S. Lewis said.
link that includes his view on old books:
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@DougK
I am just a lurker, and a lurker of recent vintage, at that, but I am sympathetic to your concerns. However, I think that @Jonathan_Burke was correct to note that there are many reasons why young people leave, and we need to pay attention to the data explaining why. @Professormom pointed out one that none of us enjoys contemplating, which is many young people who leave the church because they see no evidence that Christian belief makes any difference in the lives or behavior of its (so-called) adherents. This is another aspect of what Jon called a collision between reality and religious beliefs.
I understand where @Eddie is coming from, since I am also coming from an Evangelical perspective (although, properly speaking, many Evangelicals would disavow me for some of my views of inerrancy).
I agree with you in principle. Many people refuse to follow Christ because they refuse to come to the light, lest their evil deeds be exposed, as John put it. However, I think that you have fallen into the “culture wars” mindset that does more harm than good when it comes to “bending the curve” and reaching young people with the gospel. I can’t speak to the situation in other countries, but in the United States, the Evangelical church has attached itself at the hip to a political agenda (Republican) so that young people today equate becoming a Christian with becoming a conservative Republican. The gospel of Jesus Christ should never be subordinated to a political ideology. Tolerance is not the supreme virtue – it is love for God and, secondarily, love for neighbor. Jesus commanded much more than tolerance of our neighbor; he commanded active love for him/her. If the Evangelical church in America wants to make headway with the younger generation, it could learn a thing or two from Pope Francis, who actually seems to understand Is. 61:1
The spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
because the Lord has anointed me;
he has sent me to bring good news to the oppressed,
to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and release to the prisoners;
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor,
How true. Interpretations tend to reflect society and politics at the time. Just look at the post-millennial and pre- millennial trends.
To summarize what I am getting from you and @Eddie, I think there are 3 main reasons, young evangelicals are leaving the church:
- Problems with seeming incompatibility with science.
- Problems with a church that seems aligned with a political party and less aligned with Jesus.
- To gain moral license to do what they would like, especially sexually.
I suggest that if there was less problems with 1 and 2, then 3 would not be such an issue. In other words I think that 3 is more “icing” on the other two issues. I personally think that 1 and 2 reinforce and build up each other (in a negative way). For example, if there was more an option of churches or youth ministries that challenged the orthodoxy of taking the Adam & Eve story so literally, then they would be less ready to abandon the faith. I realize that in larger metropolitan areas outside of the South & Midwest there are such churches, but a lot of young people raised in the evangelical tradition are not very familiar with them and I fear that many of those churches are not very exciting or appealing to young people, or are even trying to reach out to college age young people.
That’s part of the reason that I think what is needed most is a national youth ministry in colleges that breaks out of the anti-science, politically very conservative mode.
BioLogos is the “curve bender” to bring science into the bosom of Christians around the world…
It is not always driven by questionable motives, nor is the need to question our present understanding of Scripture strictly confined to the modern world. We are doing no more than our predecessors did when they were confronted by new philosophies and new discoveries. Many first-century Jews were blinded to the identity of the Messiah because of their incorrect understanding of Scripture. Various competing ideas in the early church brought about serious thinking on the nature of Christ and the relationship of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Aquinas adapted the Greek duality of body/mind, devaluing the material as “lower” and labeling it the source of all lusts and sin (explaining Medieval asceticism). Gutenberg and Luther took the Bible out of the hands of the priesthood and made it available to the common Mensch. Galileo comes to mind. As does Darwin. We are in the midst of such a sea change now. We can attempt to fine-tune our interpretations and doctrines to respond faithfully to Scripture, to Christian tradition, and to the challenges of the present, or we can bury our heads in the sand. (By the very fact that you are present here, I assume that you are not interested in burying your head in the sand!)
@DougK
I wouldn’t limit it to three reasons. I’d list many, many more. Before I do, though, let me say that I respect that fact that you are motivated to do something about the problem. Anyway, I like your idea of a national youth ministry that breaks out of the anti-science, politically conservative mode. Maybe the rest of my list will give you some more ideas.
What I see, and what disturbs me, is a convergence of trends that points to the U.S. rapidly mirroring Europe in becoming a post-Christian society. Primarily, as you noted, it is the young who are abandoning the faith. Why? In somewhat orderly fashion:
- Darwinism challenged the literal understanding of Genesis.
- Theological liberalism challenged the traditional dating and authorship of the Bible, as well as the traditional understanding of the historical Jesus.
- Physics and Big Bang cosmology challenged the need for a Creator.
- Orthodox Christians overreacted and strengthened their doctrine of inerrancy and overemphasized a literal hermeneutic. (Fundamentalism v. Modernism)
- “White Flight” following school desegregation led to the creation of numerous private schools, many of them Christian.
- “Culture Wars” over the teaching of evolution in public schools led to “Christ-flight” and even more Christian schools, as well as the home-school movement.
- The attitude in many Evangelical circles seems to be that if your children attend public school, you are a lesser parent (and barely Christian).
Combine all of the above, and you have many young people primed for a crisis of faith when the “truths” they were taught based on a literal reading of the Bible do not line up with the evidence.
- The “Sexual Revolution” and the pill.
- Roe v. Wade.
- Nixon’s War on Drugs.
- Gay Rights Movement.
- Moral Majority & the like
The prime elements of the Culture Wars. In the name of fighting for Christian morals, Evangelicals allied with Republicans to try to write morality into law. Unfortunately, the Evangelical church in America has seemed to pour all its energies into this effort for the past 30 years, and all for naught. Spend some time in youth groups at conservative churches, and the message is usually abstinence and purity, interspersed with talks on purity and abstinence. Is the church’s only concern who is having sex with whom? Is there nothing else we should impart to our children about Christ and Christian morality besides prohibitions against sex? I’ll leave it at that, but obviously I could go on and on (and already have).
- The local church is no longer the community gathering point. Radio, telephones, television, cars, computers, etc., have permanently altered the way we find and form community in the modern world. Church is one option among many.
I don’t know how this last fits in, but it’s part of the overall picture that shows a complete disconnect between the Evangelical church and the younger generation. When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith in the earth?
I don’t know if my reply will be relevant to you, but I’ve moved away from Christian faith due to problems with the Bible. Evolution Theory did not influence my walking away. I walked away from the Bible and Christianity due to ambiguity about salvation message, due to teachings about hell and due to false promises made by Jesus as recorded in the Gospels.
Not sure if you are simply making an observation that evolution is not the only reason that people have difficulties with the Bible, or if you want to discuss some of those issues. I’m sure there are plenty of people here who would be willing to discuss it with you, if that’s what you wanted.
hi Jay313, sure, I’m willing to discuss any questions/topics that may be of interest to anyone (as long as I’m able to provide a response). With my original post on this thread, I simply wanted to point out that TOE is not necessarily the only reason or even the main reason people walk away from faith.