Well, if you know enough to know what cessation is, it’s probably safe to assume that your decision wasn’t based on complete ignorance of theology.
Briefly returning to Matt. 17:20. In this case, I am interpreting it literally. Jesus is making a conditional statement, “If you have faith the size of a mustard seed…” If the condition is met, the result would be that “nothing is impossible,” such as moving a mountain. [quote=“SuperBigV, post:48, topic:4893”]
a literal reading of the text says that one does not need a large, strong, time tested faith. All one needs is the smallest faith possible and then big things will happen to them. Not in eternity, but now (in the context, demoniac was just cured by Jesus, whom the disciples allegedly could not cure).
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In the context, as you noted, the disciples were unable to cure the demoniac. Jesus replies that they could not because of the littleness of their faith. Then he makes the statement in question. Thus, from the context and on a literal reading, the disciples lacked even faith the size of a mustard seed, which is why they were powerless to cast out the demon. Had they possessed faith even the size of a mustard seed, they would not only have been able to cast out the demon, but to move mountains, as well. A mustard seed is therefore not “the smallest faith possible.” Even on a literal reading, the disciples do not meet the condition. This understanding of the passage also comports with repeated similar statements of Jesus in which he consistently upbraids his disciples (and his listeners) for their lack of faith. There is a reason why “ye of little faith” became a saying. To me, the text is pointing out, yet again, how little faith we have in God. Its purpose is to encourage to increase our faith, not to expect to move mountains.
Regardless of whether we can agree on the interpretation of that one text, I understand where you are coming from. As a Christian, I also can become discouraged by the huge gap between Christ’s teaching and actual Christian practice. Sometimes, I wonder whether some people have read the same Bible that I did! But, then I remember my own weakness and failings, and how my own opinions have evolved over time, and I try to have a little more charity toward them.
Actually, Jesus speaks in metaphors so often that his disciples are frequently confused, and in one instance, Jesus pushes his metaphorical language so far that a large number of his own disciples stopped following him (John 6:66). Even at the Last Supper, they were complaining that they didn’t understand what Jesus was talking about (John 16:17-18). Jesus several times explains why he speaks this way, but if your contention is that God should have (or would have, if he existed) done it differently, I think that is just your feeling about the situation, not a necessary condition.
Well, the issue is that not a large faith was required but a very small faith. If Christians are lacking even such small faith how do they expect to be saved? At any rate, I don’t mean to disrespect or discourage you in your faith. When I was younger, I was treated as if I was a dummy. So I am aware of my inclination to argue. But I only do so for an acknowledgment that my views are indeed valid, not to brow beat my opponent into converting to my view
That may be, however, a teaching can never mean the opposite of what it teaches. For instance, a teaching about eternal life cannot mean that nothing will happen to you as a result of your faith. Yet, examining my own life and that of my Christian friends, I find we all have similar struggles. I don’t see how I can go back to Christianity short of Jesus appearing to me like he allegedly had appeared to Paul
Hi, SuperBigV; actually even though I have not (and have no intention of) leaving my Christian faith, I think I’m with you on the question of the disciples failing to cast out the demon. It sounds like @Jay313 has thought it through some and has an answer, but there is something fishy about the whole scenario that I think should give us pause in our common (possibly more modern?) mentality that faith = “gritting your teeth and doing a really good job believing something incredible.”
Here is my reason. If faith was merely the sincere confidence that “yes, I can do something – or that God will do something through me if I just ask/act…”, then it is extremely difficult to think that the disciples can be busy successfully casting out demons for persons A, B, and C, and then suddenly their confidence falters at person D. I mean … yes, we aren’t told all the details. Maybe person D looks like a really intimidating case compared to A, B, and C. But … not even a mustard seed of confidence? After you’ve just done all that? Really!? It’s reminiscent of trying to imagine the straightforward reading where Jesus feeds the 5000 (pretty exciting stuff, right?), and then barely two chapters later, we see the same disciples looking around like dunces wondering how the 4000 are going to be fed. I know the disciples are hard-headed, but … really!? If we remain stuck in our childish impressions of the Bible as a simple sequential flannel-graph litany, then on deeper study as adults, it begins to make the characters look impossibly dumb.
Subtexts like these are not immediately apparent until one begins to read between the lines and study more carefully. There are people who leave Paul’s company because they get sick, and no mention is made of them being cured --it’s a bit hard to believe they wouldn’t have tried if they typically enjoyed 100% “success” rate. We’re obviously not told everything.
And so, even as a lay person with no translation expertise, it begins to look like the messages of the Bible are stories remembered a certain way for a purpose and with an agenda. I know that anti-theists are nodding vigorously at this point, and carry this observation down the only well-worn rut they’ve cultivated for themselves, but I’m not prepared to slam doors and imprison my intellect in that tiny place given that we have a much wider intellectual landscape in which to take stock.
Much of that surveying is being done now on sites like this one, and among Christians across the world. There are great books to read (Philip Yancey’s “Soul Survivor” comes to mind where he interviews 13 “mentors” who he sees as helping him along his faith journey --not all of them Christian even – with his questions very similar to those we raise here.)
I know you probably aren’t coming here looking to be “won back”. But you need to know that there is a wide Christian world beyond the “I don’t need no stinkin’ theologians because I just read what the bible says” camps of thought. Until people manage to emerge from their simplistic (and almost always anti-theistically inspired, interestingly enough!) approaches to sacred writ, it will be hard to get much traction among Christians who haven’t bought so exclusively into that. I’m not saying you are in one of these camps. I’m just suggesting that it sounds like you (like all of us) have been influenced heavily by our cultural immersions in this particular way of thinking.
As usual, my writing above is heavily edited (improved I hope!) --and so I hope you read what’s here rather than what might initially have appeared in your email inbox.
Thanks for your good and interesting posts. Here are some of my thoughts and pushback. I hope my response will be useful. Jay Johnson has made some good points. I hope my post will be supplemental to his posts.
Below, you will see I’ve quoted one of your paragraphs which I want to press you on. I trust I haven’t taken it ‘out of context.’ I’m ready to try to explain myself more completely if my comments are unclear to you.
[quote=“SuperBigV, post:48, topic:4893”]
My biggest issue is ultimately the lack of trustworthiness of the Bible, New Testament in particular. In a nutshell, I took Jesus’ promises applicable to today (the only ones I could verify in this time and space) and tested them. I found them to be false. For example, Matt. 17:20 (NIV) says that …"Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.””[/quote]
My read of the Gospels is that Jesus resisted allowing himself to be tested. For example, anyone who said “prove it” and stood there tapping his foot impatiently to Jesus was met with bemusement. Instead, Jesus taught in parables, gave enigmatic sayings which appear to be intended to entice the hearer (now the reader) to think, probe deeper into what Jesus was saying. In other words Jesus wasn’t a huckster selling a message. He was inviting people who were open to take a spiritual journey. Hence Jesus would say things like “he who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Commentators tell us the Matthew 17:20 saying (“if anyone has faith the size of a mustard seed….”) is proverbial (like one of the Proverbs). A proverb makes a broad point and is not to be pressed into a literalistic box. So I think your issue with Matt 17:20 is that you’ve made a genre mistake when interpreting the text and then a further mistake by trying to see if your “test” received a response you deemed appropriate.
As I’ve reflected on your post and the issues you raise regarding Matthew 17:20 this is how I”ve thought about the text and Jesus’ statement in my own life. With the smallest amount of faith anything is possible. I am a selfish, opinionated, goal orientated person. I’m amazed the times in my life when my little faith (like a mustard seed) enables me to look past my own agenda and truly show care and concern for people. It is as though Jesus is watching the smidgen of faith that I have and cheering me on when I treat others in my life with dignity and respect. Jesus watches me saying … “look anything is possible - cause you are one hard nut to crack.”
We need to COMPLETELY RE-FRAME the narrative about Christianity and science that is present in the culture. We need assess our own world view and remove deeply ingrained concessions that have been rotting our foundation since the enlightenment. Science is good, but modern materialism is in effect nature-worship by another name. I would start here, by attacking the base assumptions at the root of our culture that are pushing us away from God. We must remove God from the category of “speculative idea” and return him to the realm of “common sense” in the cultural consciousness. Anything less will never be able to effect cultural change. Right now, “christian” has been successfully relegated to a negative label within a larger framework that worships labels. We must stop falling into the trap of trying to change our status in the framework, we must challenge and destroy the framework. The game is rigged against us. The only way to win is to change the game.
Thanks Mervin, I’m aware of Christian theologians like Dr Michael W. Jones, (here is one of his youtube videos) who pretty much interpret the Bible as an atheist would. I would likely agree with his version of Christianity but it’s not something that 99.9% of Christians can agree with, in my view. Anyways, thanks for your thoughts.
Thanks Larry, the issue, of course, is that Matt 17:20 is not the only passage quoting Jesus’ promise. There are verses like Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. Sure, I can find “explanations” on what this verse mean, but they all amount to excuses. One is not testing Jesus when one believes in him for eternal life, right? So, why would one be testing Jesus if they believe he will give them $1M dollars just because they prayed in faith? Noone forced Jesus to make such statements, and yet, they are right there in the Gospels. And, what’s worse, the falsity of Matt 17:20 and the like passages casts doubt on every other promise Jesus made. Why should I believe Jesus will give a believer eternal life when nothing happens to a believer who believes Jesus will answer their prayer for an otherwise impossible outcome?
17:20 and the others are not false. Instead what we see is people making excuses for their lack of faith and blaming it on God.
You have never met the criteria to test it, and neither has anyone else. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. If you are “testing” Jesus… well then you don’t really have faith, now do you. If you had faith, you wouldn’t need to test it. It’s a Catch 22. And like much of what Jesus says, it is meant to obliterate the notion that we can “do it on our own”.
The statements are meant to show us that we DON’T have real faith, no matter how much we claim we do. Because if we REALLY had faith, then we could ask for anything and we would get it. Like many other statements Jesus makes, he “ups the stakes” for what it means to be “holy” to extreme levels:Lust is really Adultery, camels must go through needles, public good deeds don’t count, and now anyone who claims to have real faith must be able to work miracles. As for our salvation, there is no answer here except that we need grace to cover our grievous shortcomings before God. If you want to interpret it some other way, go ahead, but you are deliberately avoiding the truth.
I disagree. No Christian would agree that they have no faith, that’s why they believe they are going to heaven when they die. They believe Jesus will save them from hell. However, if Jesus never delivers in this life (i…e amputees never regrow their limbs back, Down’s syndrome never gets cured) how can one trust that Jesus will deliever in the afterlife? In other words, if I make a promise that if you give me $10, I give you $1000, and you give me $10, but receive nothing. Would you trust that I will give you $1MM dollars if you give me $1000?
Also, your reasoning leads to support of any religious figure. For instance, I could claim to be divine and able to answer prayer in MY name as long as the one praying has faith the size of a mustard seed. And you would have to believe MY divinity for the same reasons you believe in Jesus’ divinity. Same arguments you use to believe in Jesus could be used to support mine and everyone elses’ divinity. When my promise fails, blame it on your lack of faith. And, if you do have faith and nothing happens, conveniently for me, I can never be tested. But, if just by chance, you receive what you asked for, of course, all glory goes to me.
This is the new brand of atheists and people walking away from faith. We are no longer satisfied by the old excuses for faith. Of course, there is nothing wrong if you want to continue to believe and in some cases I think faith may help (i.e. facing own death or that of a loved ones is never easy and faith may help there).
Oh no, you don’t give that impression at all. Three of my closest friends in the world (out of a small circle) are atheists. I’ve already heard their reasons for unbelief, and they’ve already heard my reasons for belief, and the conversation has continued for 30 years without much movement on either side. So, I’m not much inclined to think that I (or anyone else here) can persuade you to reconsider your entire worldview in a few posts on the net. (And if your mind changed that easily, it would probably change back next week.) Like you, I am too frequently tempted to lapse from discussion into argument. It’s too easy on forums such as this.
This is why I’d like to continue hearing from you, and to know whether you feel like there are many young people who fall into your “camp,” or your own reasons for leaving the faith are individual to you, and don’t necessarily “represent” a similar group of young people.
I can’t remember who said it – probably Lewis or Chesterton – but I remember reading something that said most people are convinced not by a few decisive evidences or “proofs” of God, but by a convergence of many lines of evidence that point in the same direction. I wonder if it was the same with you? Was it one thing that started you thinking, or was it just a general disconnect that eventually took a definite shape in your mind? At what point did your doubts arise? Were you still a teenager?
Sorry for all the personal questions, but this goes right back to the reasons that @DougK started the conversation in the first place.
Absolutely! Most people who grew up attending church judge all of Christianity according to the particular strain that they were taught. They don’t realize the wide divergence of opinion within even what we would call “orthodox” Christianity.
I hear you. When I was in my latter 20’s, there was a situation with a Christian organization in which I was the general manager. The President started taking the organization towards being cult-like. The Board got wind of it and hired Christian consultants to study the situation. After a sizable period of time, there came a Board meeting (without the President or me). I was concerned about this meeting but I prayed and had “faith” that they would do the right thing and that I would continue to have success with the organization. But while they did take the President out of control, they hired a very new Board member to be Interim President. He proceeded to take the organization in a completely different direction which led to its downfall within a few years. It shook up my faith.
But then I realized that the rain falls on the just and unjust alike. And where I thought I deserved the “American Dream” of ever improving job prospects, millions of Christian people in 3rd world countries had it far less than I did on my worst days. God does not promise us better circumstances than others. In fact, I believe that he wants us ultimately to find contentment in our relationship with him, regardless of the circumstances (although I do believe that he sometimes works in our physical circumstances, especially when we are baby Christians). Chances are good that almost all of us will have bad circumstances in the last years of our life. Wouldn’t it be so much better if we had unusual peace in those circumstances?
I think you have to look at the whole thrust of the Bible. God never promises better circumstances and in my experience he will tend to force you away from external circumstances that become your “requirement” for happiness.
The point in this situation is that first we have to be aligned with God’s purposes, not seeing him as Santa Claus that answers our every personal desire affirmatively. I (and I am sure that all of us that are reasonably mature) know that God would never “move a mountain” in a literal sense, unless that fit with his plan. So I don’t have unjustified faith for that or for answering all my needs affirmatively. Even the disciples could not do miracles right away. But as they grew closer to God, some of them started doing some healings and other amazing things. Most all of them went through a painful death for the cause. The real miracle was in their hearts, that they could do something they would never have done (and certainly not with any peace) if they hadn’t gotten in line with God’s plan.
My personal feeling is that we are all broken people, regardless of whether we are Christian or not. What real Christianity is about is admitting, like alcoholics, that we are broken and seeking God and fellowship with other Christians to become more what he wants us to be. And just like in Jesus’ day, a lot of the “religious” instead find reasons for personal pride and they do not accept that they too are flawed and inclined towards sin.
By the way, it wasn’t my desire to leave that Christian organization that I loved, but God had something much better for me in my Christian life. Many Christians, including those in much worse circumstances, like Joni Eareckson Tada and Nick Vujicic, say the same thing.
I think Jesus’ point was that no one has faith in much when it is for their agenda. In order to have any faith, we have to be aligned with him (which he will work to move us towards) - then great things in that direction are possible.
Well I’m a christian, and I agree that any real faith I have is certainly smaller than a mustard seed.
I think you know the “promise” is NOT a reason anyone believes in Jesus over “some religious figure”… after all, this “promise” doesn’t work like that and never did. We trust Jesus because of his historical life and resurrection.
More importantly, now you are moving the goal posts. Earlier you proclaimed to us that you “tested” this promise, but we both know that isn’t true. So now you are saying it “can’t be tested” at all. Then why did you claim to test it? And if you haven’t really tested it, then the premise that you “tested all Jesus’ promises you could and found them lacking” is FALSE. But now we have a real problem because you based your rationale for leaving the faith on this (clearly false) premise.
So you are clearly contradicting yourself. I have lost faith in your statements. Are you going to make excuses?
Hold on. Supposedly the mustard seed was the smallest of all seeds. Is it even possible to have a faith smaller than a mustard seed? If I claimed you will move mountains if you have faith in me, then automatically I become a God, while nothing happens after you pray to me? I realize it’s a lot more convenient for my future followers to make these claims but for the sake of an argument let’s test my abilities
Well, here is the claim that is not supported by the Gospels. Gospels have Jesus promising answers to prayer and, per John 14:12 believers will do great works. In the context of Jonn 14:12 Jesus points to his miracles as a proof he is with God the Father. And the very next thing he says is whoever believes in him will do the works he is doing and even greater works. Now, as I was saying, Jesus did not have to make such a statement and yet he did make it.
I know Christians re-define the meaning of greater works to mean evangelizing, but this is cognitive dissonance to me. It puts Jesus on par with Mohammed and Joseph Smith whose followers are too doing the “greater works” than they . Also, one evangelical translation, NET Bible, says plainly “miraculous works” is what believers in him will be able to do.
I agree Christians believe in Jesus for eternal life and salvation from hell. But there is no reason, in my view, to trust a promise I can’t verify when a promise I can verify fails. Remember, same excuses that explain why you can’t move a mountain could explain why you need to spend eternity in hell too. (I.e. Wrong size faith, insufficient understanding of a promise, etc)
Also, I don’t think there are good reasons to consider Jesus “historical”. There are very suspicious statements about this in the Gospels. Firstly, per the GMark and GMatthew, Jesus starts his ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned and then killed. People seeing Jesus powers think he is risen John the Baptist. (Mark 6:14, Matthew 14:2). And this opinion allegedly remains as shown by Peters confession (Mark 8:27-30 and parallel passages, especially GLuke). Note that Jesus says to "not tell anyone about him. This makes no sense for a teacher to claim especially since he was already working big miracles and teaching large crowds . But this bit makes perfect sense to claim as Jesus’ words by his later followers, since it would explain why the Judeans or Gallileans may have never even heard of this teacher
Now youre making things up. Matthew 17:20 says:
“He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.””
So clearly the apostles’ faith is smaller than a mustard seed…
Hi Jay, sure I can respond. Sure, there were many issues but I choose a few to keep conversation pointed in the same direction. Otherwise things may become scattered and diluted.
But, per your request I’ll broaden the range. Warning, this can turn into a long post.
As a child, I believed in the eternal hell. And, what’s worse, at one point I became scared of committing an unpardonable sin after becoming familiar with a passage about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This realization probably led to my panic attacks. What frightened me, is that I had no hope before God and could not get help from fellow people (I believed). What words of consolation can the preachers tell me? If God himself thinks I can’t be forgiven, what does it matter if preachers can still offer hope? With time these feelings subsided (perhaps by being buried in my subconscious to give me trouble later, I’m 40 yo this year and have lived with anxiety for almost 20 years now, but I digress). However, I gained this hyper alertness to theology. I started reading the Bible and picking up various teachings. When I came to the US, in 1991, I thought that God smiled on our family. We emigrated to a Christian country. When I sneezed, some were saying… “God bless you”, money had “In God we trust”, etc… Things were good. I started listening to a Christian radio and a preacher named “Tony Evans” caught my attention. He taught about justification by faith apart from works, eternal life that cannot be lost and I loved it. And it was a Biblical teaching too. I think I was 16-18yo by that time. I still believed in hell (which troubled me), but I also believed that I was saved from it through faith in Jesus Christ.
Until I started preaching in my church. And participating in the adult Bible study classes. I found out that in addition to the faith in Jesus, repentance from sin is also required. Sure enough, Jesus himself taught this. Right there in the Synoptic Gospels. Repent and believe the Gospel. What is repentance? Hard to tell for sure, but likely has to do with a change of attitude and behavior. An adulterer needs to stop comitting adultery and believe in Jesus to be saved. Antinomianism is a heresy, etc… And so my troubles rekindled. I was a teenager with all of the normal hormones (luckily I loved the opposite sex, and was not gay) and so I “struggled with lust” or sexual arousal by beautiful women. As Jesus taught (and who could tell whether I or anyone interpreted him correctly?), if you lust after a woman who is not your wife, you have committed an adultery in your heart. Could you be saved if you are living in adultery? Many Christians don’t think you can and now I was not sure again.
So, I again had a problem. How can I be sure that I am saved from hell? I believed in Jesus, but I also sinned. We all sin, of course, but some sins are deliberate and others you can’t do anything about. Can a willful and deliberate sinner be considered saved? Only after repentance and how can such a one repent?
The realization hit me. There was eternal hell, with a very unclear way out. I was back to square one almost. Having very conflicted emotions, some days I rejoyced at the thought of believing the Gospel, other times in despair over not having repented of my sins. (Curiously, Gospel of John, written with the purpose of people believing in Jesus and having life in his name does not even once mention repentance). I thought… “how can a LOVING God, create Hell and not provide a clear way out?” And also, how can a loving God not communicate with people who are genuinely seeking a relationship with him? I may be writing all of this matter of factly, but please don’t misunderstand, I spend hours agonizing in my emotions, crying out to God for a sign, anything he could offer as a proof of me being his child. After all, God loved me, right? Would a loving being let his child be in agony? I know I couldn’t stand by if my children, easily observable by me, were seeking me with tears, and, allegedly, I’m not as loving as God. And yet, this God will send people to hell for not having a relationship with him too.
What kind of a good God is this? Doesn’t communicate with believers in him, lets believers in him suffer in doubt and punishes believers of other religions and atheists in eternal hell?
In my search for the true Gospel, I started reading Calvinists and Arminians and Free Grace preachers. I learned that Arminians were right and Calvinists too, and the Free Gracers. The Bible does not present a single path, it offers support for every interpretation. I found that God, in the Bible, even admits to changing his mind. For example, 1 Sam 2:30 “Therefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.
Did you catch this? A promise was made that members of your family would serve the Lord forever but NOW, forget it. Promise no longer applies. New rules. What kind of a loving being goes back on his promises? How can anyone be “standing on the promises of God”?
Sorry, this is a bit long and talkative, but I tried to paint a broader picture
