How do Christians present the teleological argument for God's existence in an era where abiogenesis and evolution are so widely accepted?

[T_aquaticus]

@RichardG

But, if the designer is God then, by principle, it should both survive and persist for no other reason than He wants it to.

In a more general sense, this parallels the Christian belief that no matter what happens it is part of God’s plan (without crossing over into full Calvinism).

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@T_aquaticus

In a more general sense, this parallels the Christian belief that no matter what happens it is part of God’s plan

That would assume the all or nothing principle of God’s involvement.

Certainly in terms of evolution TE leaves space for chance and diversification beyond the basic design. The idea that God is a God of minutia is not one I would promote or accept.

Richard

[St.Roymond]

@T_aquaticus

@RichardG

Design over rides any other selection.

How? Examples?

Good question. The particular design would have to be better than what natural selection could manage.

@RichardG

But, if you based a new car design on a vintage model it is unlikely to out perform a modern one

Now my mind is churning away at older models that could outperform today’s cars given modern innards . . . .

@RichardG

design might mean that something is neither better of worse, just different, but because it is designed and placed it survives, not because it is better but because that is what the designer wanted. It would account for some left field attributes that do not make evolutionary sense.

Something like that would be awesome to find!

Nice idea for a science fiction story, too.

@RichardG

if there is specific designs involved they would persist because they were designed and not because of competition or even effectiveness.

They’d have to survive the competition game anyway. The one advantage would be that a design inserted into the system would be directly addressing a need, whereas evolution by itself would do its usual floundering thing in new circumstances.

[St.Roymond]

@T_aquaticus

the Christian belief that no matter what happens it is part of God’s plan

I think an equally prevalent view would be that whatever comes along, God will fit it into His plan.

[St.Roymond]

@RichardG

The idea that God is a God of minutia is not one I would promote or accept.

Why? It is often the small change that goes unnoticed that changes the entire course of a natural phenomenon, or of a society.

On the other hand if what you mean is a continuous stream of minutia, I agree; that’s more like desparate juggling.

[adamjedgar (adam james edgar)]

@St.Roymond

Which is why those in our informal university intelligent design club had no time for those who held that God designed and made things one at a time; any half-competent Mesopotamian deity would have been capable of that – but to select a small set of constants and let it unfold like a sort of cosmic flower, that demands a Designer!

tell me this, can you provide a human design that evolved by itself into something the designer intended? Do we have any examples of that in our reality?

I ask that because it appears to me that the only difference between me and God when it comes to evolution is that God initiated something from nothing, but once that happened, he became bound by and too the thing he created out of nothing. This isnt rational or logical to be honest…you are suggesting that a creator who is infinite and unbound has become a slave to his own creation…you are saying that if God created nuclear weapons, he is bound to the problem of disposal of and the effects of nuclear waste. That is highly problematic theology and im struggling for biblical evidence that might be used to support such a claim.

[St.Roymond]

@adamjedgar

can you provide a human design that evolved by itself into something the designer intended?

Sure – it’s called design by evolution and it’s done for car parts, machinery, and even furniture.

But that’s beside the point: with the universal constants as we have them, once the universe got going physics was going to turn things out as we see them, and with biology as it is, once life got going it was going to produce immense variety.

@adamjedgar

God initiated something from nothing, but once that happened, he became bound by and too the thing he created out of nothing. This isnt rational or logical to be honest…you are suggesting that a creator who is infinite and unbound has become a slave to his own creation

I have no idea how you’re making that up here.

But of course God is bound by the rules He set in motion; He isn’t fickle or whimsical, He stands by what He makes.

@adamjedgar

if God created nuclear weapons, he is bound to the problem of disposal of and the effects of nuclear waste.

Of course He is, though I don’t know where the “weapons” notion came from; nuclear power is the natural one – I don’t think it’s possible to have a natural nuclear explosion.

[Paraleptopecten (Timothy Campbell)]

@St.Roymond

I don’t think it’s possible to have a natural nuclear explosion.

There’s been a natural nuclear reactor on earth, but no known natural nuclear explosions.