C. S. Lewis uses that to make a point somewhere in his writings, IIRC to the effect that it points to a reality beyond what we presently perceive.
Ipsum esse.
Haven’t followed all the posts in this thread … but just to continue (and perhaps essentially echo) Vinnie’s line of thought in the last few posts …
If any created thing or event could be demonstrated as a special action or presence of God’s work, then immediately everything else outside that set is assigned a “2nd class” status of being “not God’s special work”. And Lessing’s ugly Ditch remains unchallenged.
And yet, I do not have an easy answer or explanation for my own puzzle there. Because Jesus is recorded as (on occassion) seeing this world as the Devil’s playground that is being invaded by God. In fact, when the devil offers him all the kingdoms of the world - I am at loss for why Jesus let it stand that any of the world should belong to Satan in the first place. Or - I guess maybe the only answer I do have is to surmise that while the world is certainly God’s, yet our hearts (and the hearts of many powerful people who seem to ‘run the world’) are not given to God - who will not take anybody’s heart coercively. So perhaps it is in that way that worldly kingdoms are given over to Satan (by all of us), while God wants us to repent and turn toward His Love. Jesus refused to play the world’s game by its rules to make “success” happen. He could have. And “success” would certainly follow … but then also be revealed as the Satanic success that it really is (as Jesus tells anybody - even Peter - who tempts him in those directions to : “Get behind me Satan.”) So maybe I just did answer my own question.
But this is all a different way of distinguishing between God’s modus operandi and our natural one than the more scientific orientation going on here. Or is it all that different? Maybe it is here where we should be paying attention to the differences? At least it is certainly Peter’s initial error that we see so many church leaders repeating today - having banished Christ from being anywhere near their inner sanctums so that they need not fear any true Messianic warnings about putting away their Satanic ways.
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It all goes to Genesis, especially the Tower of Babel, though you have to step briefly into Jewish mythology to see it. In essence, God put certain ‘angels’ in charge of the various nations, but every one of those beings left aside faithfulness to YHWH, so those nations passed from YHWH’s “portion” – which is why He started over with Abraham to build one for Himself. But Satan is the ruler of those rebel beings, and with them caged – as is hinted at in the New Testament, cf. Peter – he ends up holding them all.
There’s another explanation that I never really bought but is worth mentioning, and that’s that when Adam sinned he abdicated and the Deceiver/Serpent ‘inherited’ Adam’s dominion.
In the temptations Jesus is being rather cagey. Satan is on a fishing expedition trying to find out just what Jesus was up to, and Jesus wasn’t playing that game. He knew that a big part of the plan was Yahweh reclaiming all the nations, but He wasn’t about to let Satan know that because it would have revealed far too much. He had to let Satan continue thinking that Jesus, even though God, would die like any other man and thus come under his power.
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I’ve been thinking on this. Isn’t Paul using an ancient science, just as the rest of the OT and NT do? It seems that miracles are not clearly seen any more, because we know that phenomena such as demon possession and much of creation that was erstwhile considered directly supernatural, is not.
I choose to believe for other reasons. I don’t honestly see nebulous evidence–in fact, I struggle a lot to believe, often, as most of us do, I think. That is one of the questions I’ll have for God–but I am confident that He does not grade us on our knowledge of th world, but on what we do with what we know.
Thanks.
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I’m kind of in the boat. Except I think that demons use to exist and no longer do. I’m not certain if any of the disorders mentioned were actually mental disorders or not. It’s like if they did not exist, who was Jesus arguing against in the garden or was that story just symbolic and so on. Plus if they don’t exist does that also mean the hosts of heaven never existed and if not, did any supernatural being actually visit Mary and Joseph or Zechariah and so on. If angels were real it’s not hard for me to imagine evil angels to be real also.
But since I think the evil ones died already, including Satan and that the other experiences have ceased, it means I just have to extend my faith in them as much as I extend my faith into El still existing.
Ironically for me what made my faith more bearable was omnism. It helped validate the experiences of others from various faiths to me and made God seem way less selective and more universal in accommodating everyone around the world throughout history in ways that made sense to them.
I think God most likely does not exist. I’ve had 1-2 experiences that though could be explained naturally as just highly unlikely coincidences, I choose to just have faith. Faith is a choice. I have faith that these events and these pulls are of the Holy Spirit. Even if I also am aware it’s illogical.
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So do you not think Jesus was an actual exorcist? We now understand medical illnesses and such but does that actually preclude demon possession?
Did Jesus just inaccurately believe he was expelling demons? Did he deceptively pretend demons were possessing people while healing them of other medical illnesses instead of just telling people the truth? Or is there just a whole bunch of made up stuff in the gospels?
Yes. I agree with all that. . Countless places seem to indicate we will be judged by our “works” (not of the law) and faith, not our intellect beliefs or knowledge about God. One can drive down a street and be guided by it without knowing its name: I think some modern formulations of Christianity undervalue the need to do good. It’s not some secondary part of being a Christian. I think it’s essential to our identity.
Vinnie
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I know this is addressed to you, @Randy, and I don’t want to foreclose on hearing your own reply still. I just can’t restrain myself from butting in here since I want to wrestle with this too - and maybe have something of an answer to it of my own now.
Jesus refers to ‘mammon’ as a ‘master’ (or a ‘god’). If I fail to think of that (or other) particular idols as being sentient supernatural beings sitting on their own respective fallen thrones somewhere, am I then thinking that Jesus was some sort of backward “pre-science” peasant that didn’t really have a clue? Or might he instead be using spiritual language to perhaps reveal some deeper dimension of some very worldly - very physical things - like money? I don’t think Jesus (or his audience of that day) would have been unaware of the worldly/physical aspect of these things (principalities and powers quite as visible to them then as to us now), even as they heard teachings about the demonic nature of those same things. We today are aware of yet more of the physical details of the world, but how would that affect our fundamental posture in all this as having any real difference from theirs other than in quantity of physical knowledge?
[What I don’t have an answer for, then, - if I follow the above, is the very conversational interactions that Jesus goes on to have with particular demons. E.g. the legion - who, with apparent and inexplicable stupidity beg to be released into a bunch of swine - who are then shortly going to die anyway - and now where will these hapless ‘spirits’ be other than in the same ‘abyss’ they didn’t want in the first place?! - (and now with some community deprived of their substantial herd wealth). That whole story just strikes me as odd. If supernatural demons were really that laughably idiotic, then how fearsome could any of them be? Well - I guess it should be obvious to me that evil power isn’t necessarily coupled with intelligence. But anyway - all this bolsters my suspision that there is much here that eludes our modern understandings - or mine in particular.]
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Given the bad decisions that lots of otherwise-sensible people make, it wouldn’t be all that surprising for demons to make a bad decision in the heat of the moment.
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I think @Paraleptopecten may be correct. The demons could make boneheaded decision if presented with the Son of God. The gods often do dumb things. They were not omni-beings. Angels or demons much more so. That ending may have been a mercy. So I see nothing wrong narrative wise with the demons doing something like that. But I think this particular story has a lot more going on.
Same. It’s an issue that is overdue for me to seriously ponder.
I was thinking the same thing. Other demons know he was from Nazareth in Mark! Jesus also says he casts out demons. But I don’t think it’s only the conversational pieces but the sheer number of exorcisms throughout the synoptic gospels and Jesus saying things like “this kind can only come out by prayer.” If we are completely dismissing all exorcisms we are dismissing many passages that claim to be the words and deeds of Jesus.
Is it not possible there is an underlying spiritual reality and that demon possession can be real? Do we have to completely rule out all demon possession? Do we think of mute or mentally ill people today as demon possessed? Definitely Italy not easy questions.
I think the pig story is humorous to be honest and one of the reasons I came back to the idea that Mark could be written by a Jewish Christian. Given that it explains Jewish customs we know it at least has Gentiles in mind as an audience. But the scene with the pigs is comical to a degree. These quotes are from a Bible study lesson I ran a while back:
Meier: “It is scarcely accidental that Mark places this pericope dealing with Gentile faith directly after a nullification of the Jewish food laws. Both issues were the focal point of sharp and dividing controversy in the early church. As Meier puts it, “having declared all foods clean (and therefore having torn down a major barrier between Jews and Gentiles in 7:19), the Marcan Jesus now passes through various Gentile regions, bringing healing and food (symbolically, the salvation proclaimed by the gospel) to the pagans and thus foreshadowing the Christian mission.” (MJ, VII, p. 712)
The core story itself stems from a Jewish Milieu
Most scholars have picked up on a common theme in this incidence.
Mary Healy writes: The territory of the Gerasenes, on the east side of the Sea of Galilee would have been an eerie place even in daylight. To this day numerous caves dot the shoreline, many of which were used to bury the dead. Then as now, tombs were popularly regarded as a favorite haunt of demons. The lifestyle and customs of this Gentile region would have seemed alien to Jews, since the inhabitants did not observe the Jewish moral or dietary laws. Indeed, this particular vicinity would be viewed as doubly unclean, containing as it did both tombs (see Num 5:2) and pigs (see Lev 11:7). As Jesus steps ashore, he is immediately challenged by the demonic powers that seem to hold sway in the area, as if they are jealous of their territorial rights. [1]
Bock (ibid) writes: “In fact, there are three layers of uncleanness: the demons, death, and the pigs. Everything about this scene would make Jewish readers squeamish, and the man is likely a Gentile, not an expectant candidate for one ministering Jewish hope.”
Joel Marcus writes, ”In its present form, for example, the story is generally positive about non-Jews; the Gentile demoniac whom Jesus delivers from his affliction ends up becoming a missionary of sorts and proclaiming what Jesus has done for him throughout the predominantly pagan region of the Decapolis, causing everyone there to be amazed. Some of the story’s elements, however, seem to reflect an origin in a chauvinistic Jewish environment; it implicitly links unclean spirits with what are for Jews unclean places (graveyards), unclean people (Gentiles), and unclean animals (pigs), and it describes with relish the death of the latter.”[2]
Robert Stein summarizes the issue succinctly: “Thus the unclean spirits dwelling in the unclean man living in the unclean tombs enter the unclean swine.”[3]
[1] Mary Healy, The Gospel of Mark, Baker Academic pg 98…
[2] Joel Marcus, Mark Vol 1 pg 347, Anchor Bible Commentary
[3] Robert Stein, Baker Exegetical Commentary on Mark pg 256
So I am definitely seeing the “Jewish chauvinism” mentioned by Joel Marcus. How historical this scene is belongs to another matter. Then there is the question of “Legion” and Mark’s date. But it’s difficult to deny the overwhelming evidence of the Gospels that Jesus exorcised demons. It also leads to the problem of why so many people are possessed by demons.
Most people are not going to be left with a comfortable view of the gospels and scratching their heads wondering why they should trust the rest if Jesus was not a genuine exorcist.
Vinnie
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I came across the idea that Paul is talking about Jewish astrology, which while not pagan had a lot in common with the Babylonian and Persian versions (which served to bring magi from the east to find Jesus). The idea of Jewish astrology had nothing to do with horoscopes, rather it had to do with the idea that God announces major moves in the heavens. Dr. Michael Heiser seems to hold to this as well; he’s got perhaps the best brief explanation tied to what John says in Revelation 12.
A friend of mine in grad school worked at a mental hospital in New Jersey for two summers. After the second summer he told some of us that the hospital director, who was an atheist, had shared that he believed in demons because there were patients with “alters” that knew things there was no way the patients could know, including speaking languages they had never learned. Add that to a couple of experiences I’ve had and I’d say that demons are still around.
I second that!
= - = + = - = † = - = + = - =
See above.
The greatest ones are bound, as Peter notes, in Tartarus, waiting for their final judgment. That’s actually who Jesus went and preached to “in prison”, to tell them no, He wasn’t stuck in the realm of the dead with them, and no, they weren’t getting another chance.
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That is sort of a “show stopper”, isn’t it? The Mammon thing can be understood allegorically and thus spiritually, but talking to demons is a whole different thing.
Then there’s the fact that Acts reports that Paul cast out demons, too.
I have to agree.
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I am never going to be able to listen to that song again without thinking of demons!
Like instead of taking care of the nations Yahweh assigned them rebelling instead and seeking worship for themselves.
That one struck me as kind of freaky when we first came to it when translating Mark.
We derailed an entire class session on that one in NT Greek readings!
I find the most interesting phrase to be the bit about tormenting them “before the time”. This is a reference to the final judgment which they know is coming; if Yahweh locked away the elohim/gods of the nations and sentenced them to die like men, the demons would have grasped that they weren’t going to avoid punishment, either.
I recall a discussion about demon possession (I think it was at an InterVarsity Christian Fellowship Bible study) where someone suggested that if there are X number of demons, then demon possession would have become more and more rare over time as the world population increased, so the greater frequency of possession in Jesus’ time on earth makes sense.
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The above, and this is not meant to be mean, just the reality, is something I just don’t believe. I think it’s lies and I’ve heard it thousands of times and no one can ever prove it. Just stories. I’ve heard stories of Bigfoot and aliens too. Pastors healing crippled kids and so on. Then no follow ups.
It is a common belief that there are no demon-possessed people today. That would be good if it would be true. It seems it is not true, although people may label mental disorders wrongly as being caused by demons.
Here, most(?) priests of the Lutheran church were very sceptical about demons possessing people. That has changed, possibly because the country has moved towards being openly ‘post-Christian’. There are growing numbers of people involved in occult and movements that could be classified as worship of idols. Priests around the country have started to report cases where they think demons are involved.
Two persons within the Lutheran church have been given a permission to act as exorcists. They seem to have a healthy attitude and procedures. They start by assuming that the ‘patients’ have mental problems. If that assumption seems to be true, they send the persons to psychiatrists. Also potential physical problems and complications are checked. Only if none of the ‘natural’ reasons seem to explain the state, they start to handle the ‘patient’ as a potential victim of demons.
They have developed procedures where the ‘treatment’ is more like ‘ordinary’ prayers than movie-type exorcism. It resembles a small-group prayer meeting of believers, rather than exorcisms. It involves reading of Bible, the Lord’s prayer, etc. They tell that if the person is possessed, it manifests at some point of the prayers. When it has manifested, they command the unclean spirit to leave. That has brought immediate help to at least some persons (I don’t know numbers or details).
The reason why there is an attempt to keep the exorcisms out of publicity is that the reactions are not positive. This ‘modern’ society does not believe that demons exist, so the exorcisms are interpreted as something harmful. Especially psychiatrists give negative statements about the activity, without knowing much of the cases and procedures.
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I’m not fond of “this biblical evidence is real but there is no or extremely little evidence of it today because….”. The alarm bells are waking up the skeptic in me. It is either real or not. If demon possession is real I doubt we have any way of knowing how many demon possessions still occur and if there can be underlying spiritual warfare influencing physical medical conditions in a fallen world. We are over-reaching. We can trust Jesus on this or not.
The Synoptics make this a primary activity of Jesus. From the Gospel coalition.
The data gathered from the four major Synoptic accounts and several minor references that describe the symptoms of “demon possession” and exorcism should not be viewed as exhaustive in nature since the summary statements and passages make it clear that exorcism was a regular feature of Jesus’ ministry and, ultimately, the ministry of his disciples (Matt. 4:23-25; 8:16-17; 10:1, 5-8; Mark 1:21-34, 39; 3:9-12; 6:6b-7, 12-13; Luke 4:31-41; 6:17-19; 7:21; 9:1-2, 6). In fact this ministry, along with teaching, preaching and healing, together made up the four major aspects of Jesus’ ministry.
This is part of why conservatives hold on to their literalism so strongly. Once the camel’s nose is in the tent, the rest is soon to follow. How much can we chip away in the name of accommodation before there is nothing left? They know that once they give in on early Genesis, a lot of the rest of the Bible is in trouble.
Not an easy question. I wish more people here would chime in.
Vinnie
Wait, what? The comment was about how many people may get possessed, and I related a mathematical observation about it. Why should some simple math “wake up the skeptic”? The only reason that observation wouldn’t be true would be if you think there are billions of demons so that there are more of them than of human beings.
You are anyway – you’re reading into a simple statement of math stuff that isn’t there.
That would be an incorrect assumption: after Genesis 1 - 11 there is far less myth or mythologized history, so very little “of the rest of the Bible” would be in trouble at all.
BTW, I wouldn’t call literalists conservative; a conservative would be one who claims no more for the text than it claims itself, and imposing literalism is claiming more than the text does.
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That is not really correct. Critical scholarship shows there is plenty of myth throughout the rest of the Bible. Daniel, Moses, the Exodus, all the patriarchs etc… Maybe the stories as they stand (usually in two contradictory forms) are mostly myth, maybe mostly historical; maybe something in between. At the end we have story and narrative. Much of it has no concerns with history in the modern sense. It’s really more faith propaganda than history. Even with Jesus we have four visions (with a lot of overlap) but they are not amalgams or just supplement less full earlier narratives. Replacements is probably a more correct term. It wrong to harmonize them.
But anyways, my comment about the camel was more for those who deny Jesus was an actual exorcist. I’m not sure how you plan on selling that to a conservative when you can’t convince them Genesis 1-11 is not a concordant description of reality. And if you are going to tell them that, I really can’t fault them for dismissing everything someone has to say out of hand.
I would. The shoe fits to me.
You don’t know how many demons there are.
You don’t know how many demons go to earth to possess people.
You don’t know that a greater population means greater numbers of demons would spend time on earth (you are arguing the opposite).
You don’t know how many possessions today there are or if there is some underlying spiritual reality to physical defects.
Demon possession seems to be a pretty common occurrence per the gospels witnesses. You seem to be apologizing for why it might not be (or isn’t) as common today. But you don’t know that it isn’t. This is just drinking the secular kool aid. I’m going to believe in demon possession as the gospels describe or not. I am not going to soften it for some middle position based on stuff I can’t possibly know.
That Jesus was viewed as an exorcist and worked these types of miracles, is as certain as it is that he spoke in parables.
We can certainly say the human Jesus didn’t know better and thought he was curing demons when in fact he was healing medical illnesses and believe all the conversations between demons are made up. Most Christians would not be comfortable with that. But there are clearly limits to Jesus’s knowledge in the gospels so it is at least in the realm of Christian possibility. Jesus may have mistakenly believed Moses authored the Pentateuch as well. Somehow though, the performing exorcisms that aren’t real and being so wrong about a spiritual aspect of existence is vastly more troubling to me than a question of who wrote a book.
Great question… I don’t know. I do struggle about that, but the description fits so strongly in my experience with treating epilepsy and schizophrenia, as well as some reports of possession in Africa (bori), that it appears to me to fit medical and psychological (maybe dissociative) illnesses. Also, it seems to me that God’s accommodation to the creation story is not that far away as a stretch. Paul uses ancient science in other areas of the NT, too…such as using a the three tiered universe (all should confess that Jesus is Lord, in heaven, on Earth, and under the earth).
To me, in a way, the drive to get rid of a spirit by prayer implied that this particular case was possibly more of an emotional illness, than schizophrenia or epilepsy. Jesus may be explaining what they can accept.
I’m not saying that demons or possession don’t exist; but I have a hard time with that in these cases.
Finally, I hear the argument that we would not accept the melding of myth and faith…I, too, struggle here. However, it reminds me of the struggle our YEC brothers and sisters have. It is not easy. I am not sure.
I struggle accepting what seems to me to be a nebulous assertion from Paul that he, and his contemporaries, could tell God’s characteristics from nature when he is mistaken elsewhere. I don’t really know…thank you for your very good thoughts.
I do think Jesus learned as he grew …but I don’t know how much.
There is so much to learn from the New Testament. Merry Christmas!
Addendum: Randal Rauser has reviewed Romans 1:20 extensively, as well. It’s interesting to read his thoughts.
Does Paul’s Epistle to the Romans Imply There are no Actual Atheists? - Randal Rauser
I appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks
I find myself so often on these forums dissagreeing however this is such a wonderful post. Anything i tried to add would only detract from it…thank you Craig.