Merv, I’ve been running all day, and haven’t had a chance to read this thread. Thanks for the OP. I’m looking forward to catching up with the article and the thread.
The podcast was very good. I really value their main point to look to the long game in what we do.
As many things do these days, it reminded me of the wonderful poem @jpm shared over in Pity Quotes some months ago, a segment of “Manifesto: The Mad Farmer Liberation Front” by Wendell Berry, a copy of which now floats here and there on my desk. I give you all the whole poem, because I can’t not:
Love the quick profit, the annual raise,
vacation with pay. Want more
of everything ready-made. Be afraid
to know your neighbors and to die.
And you will have a window in your head.
Not even your future will be a mystery
any more. Your mind will be punched in a card
and shut away in a little drawer.
When they want you to buy something
they will call you. When they want you
to die for profit they will let you know.
So, friends, every day do something
that won’t compute. Love the Lord.
Love the world. Work for nothing.
Take all that you have and be poor.
Love someone who does not deserve it.
Denounce the government and embrace
the flag. Hope to live in that free
republic for which it stands.
Give your approval to all you cannot
understand. Praise ignorance, for what man
has not encountered he has not destroyed.
Ask the questions that have no answers. Invest in the millennium. Plant sequoias.
Say that your main crop is the forest
that you did not plant,
that you will not live to harvest.
Say that the leaves are harvested
when they have rotted into the mold.
Call that profit. Prophesy such returns.
Put your faith in the two inches of humus
that will build under the trees
every thousand years.
Listen to carrion — put your ear
close, and hear the faint chattering
of the songs that are to come.
Expect the end of the world. Laugh.
Laughter is immeasurable. Be joyful
though you have considered all the facts.
So long as women do not go cheap
for power, please women more than men.
Ask yourself: Will this satisfy
a woman satisfied to bear a child?
Will this disturb the sleep
of a woman near to giving birth?
Go with your love to the fields.
Lie easy in the shade. Rest your head
in her lap. Swear allegiance
to what is nighest your thoughts.
As soon as the generals and the politicos
can predict the motions of your mind,
lose it. Leave it as a sign
to mark the false trail, the way
you didn’t go. Be like the fox
who makes more tracks than necessary,
some in the wrong direction. Practice resurrection.
Mark, I looked as well and couldn’t find a transcript. Inlistened out and about today on the way to the grocery store, while there and on the way home. So not an intense lieten, but it was worth it. Although overtly Christian, i think the overall long game thought would be valuable to anyone,
Terry,
I read it the first time ages ago during a particularly horrible year teaching (family deaths, school-related suicides, Columbine, a grueling teaching schedule and grad classes with theory). I wanted any other life than my own and read LOTR and all the Dune novels by Frank Herbert. And some other stuff. I reread LOTR about 5 years ago after having watched the PBS series about WW1. What an amazingly effective lens to view the LOTR novels through. It was incredibly informing. You can see Tolkien’s WW1 experience coming through the whole novel. Normal people called into a fight they never knew was happening, the special commeraderie that goes with doing something incredibly hard and dangerous together, while no one else understands or values it, sacrifice and hardship for a greater purpose, the end of which you might not see. And then the contrast between leaders who honestly and humbly evaluate their own characters in order to be truely great. And long game, long game, long game.
If you read them, you’d be the kind of guy who likes a really great story that gives good perspective.
There is no denying that Christian themes, tropes, and images can be found in LotR. However, given Tolkien’s well-known views on allegory, I would still say that he didn’t write the books with the intention to be read in the same way that Lewis intends Narnia to be read.
For example, in LotR Gandalf gives his life to save the Fellowship on the Bridge of Khazad Dum which is a Christ-like moment in the way that all self-sacrifice tropes are, but I don’t think that is the same as in Narnia where Aslan’s death on the Stone Table is a bald allegory of Jesus’ Crucifixion.
So whilst I agree with you about the imagery that might be found, I would also agree that one shouldn’t read the books like Narnia is intended to be read.
I think there is something to be said here for books vs. TV… From what I have seen most of the comparisons have been between LoTR the books and GoT the TV show. Which is perhaps, unfair.
GoT the book series is loosely based on the War of the Roses, a period of termoil, political intrigue, betrayal, and death. IMO, the HBO vision of Westeros is very dumbed down by comparison, with lots of bread and games (read: sex and violence) to keep the viewers happy. Granted there is sex and violence in the books but a description of violence is only as gory as one’s imagination. Similarly, the sex in the book is not there to titillate the reader.
Tolkien fans have been fortunate that the books have a sort of exulted status in Western Literature and so we’ve been very fortunate with the care and attention the big screen releases have been given. I was delighted with the first two episodes of Rings of Power, for example, the best Tolkien fanfiction to date.
However, the films could easily have been 18-rated with scenes of Urakhai pillaging villages and brutalising Rohan’s soldiers at Helm’s Deep for extra ‘grit’ or sex scenes added ‘for the lads’.
I’m not defending the bad in GoT - there’s plenty of it - after all the source material for much of the controversial content in TV shows is already there in the books. Even if Martin said he included it the books are accurate in history telling (eg. rape, brutality, infanticide) all things that happen in the historical period which inspired the series.
Yet on another level, comparing LotR and GoT is a bit like trying to compare apples and oranges. Sure they are both round, and they’re both fruit but…
Aside: It is often noted that George RR Martin has a habit of killing off beloved characters. Personally, I always thought this was part of the genius of the books. The first time it happens it hits hard, and then the panic “who’s next?”. It kept me hooked as a reader.
Have no defence for Game of Thrones (as a former fan). It’s an awful testament to the rotten soul of our society that George RR Martin has been allowed to get away with writing what essentially is child porn. Not to mention how it completely misrepresents the medieval era, (and all its cultures) so that the supposed ‘realism’ just comes across as pointless nihilism.
Let’s hope the King returns through this new Amazon show.
Not yet. Is it a separate book or a story within another book? I havent delved into the documentation of his world building beyone the first few pages of the Silmdjtbehfu (how’s that spelled again)?
I am fascinate though by the idea of Tolkien’s entire related body of work being seen as a single art piece, like a symphony or an art installation. There may be things worthy of greater focus, but there is also a greater created whole out of which they emerged.
Liam, as ai mentioned to Terry, I think a reading through the lens of WWI is very helpful. The tendency to look at it as allegory disolves quickly and easily, because suddenly there is no tension between the characters and roles they may or many not play. Certainly biblical themes are there, Jonathan and David in Frodo and Sam for example, but not so much as allegory but as underlying thoughts shared by T and us that are part of our cultural thinking that helps us understand what we make of things like (specifically male) relationships forged through suffering and dedication to each other and a much larger cause, Great and not so great leaders (The humility exhibited by the really great ones like Aragorn and particularly Faramir in contrast to Boramir and their father). Our common, petty cluelessness. Now wars are brewing long before most people have a clue, and are sometimes underway and over without some people ever being aware of them except for a few inconveniences. Places of refuge, safe havens out of the trenches and battlefields, and how important they are, that’s why he lingers so long with flowers, golden sunlight, clean beds, baths, a real meal amd the healing value of sleep. Those basic comforts that these soldiers used to take for granted have now become the greatest luxury. I the situations of safety and protection you can feel the story lose tension. I relax. It’s why Tom B and Goldberry are so wonderful (and powerful).
Anyway, this reading came on me by accident. I happened to see a PBS series about The Great War just as I was starting the novels the 2nd or 3rd time. It was a revelation.
I guess I really should get to reading the article!
Finally caught up! Thank you for this article! And podcast, @Mervin_Bitikofer .
This struck me particularly, because it’s been on my mind for a long time, although I usually talk about it using theological terms:
One cannot truly defeat the enemy with the enemy’s tools. The ends cannot justify the means, even if the cost of that virtue is ruin and destruction. Tolkien knew that the alternative, the grasp for ultimate power, meant that the contest between good and evil would be transformed into a contest between evils. The raw quest for power will corrupt all it touches.
We see this in every realm, don’t we?
And at least in so many of rhe churches in the US, we see exactly this at play.
The raw quest for power will corrupt all it touches.
It does. It already has.
We practice the ethic of Machiavelli, when we follow this course, and we become like his prince.
The podcast talked about looking for oportunities to be involved in the long game. Wonderful.
My question of both the article and the podcast (and everyone else — ever) “How to proceed?”
Yes - this biblical message that the end never justifies the means (but is instead determined by the means) is such a needed reminder right now - especially among those who are religious. And the podcast that speaks of our perspective (the false perception that things are worse now than they ever have been) is what tends to lure people toward justifying any means at hand - especially the means they see their enemy using. All they accomplish by doing so is to reveal the true colors of their agenda. When they forsake truth, they become untrustworthy in all matters great and small.
That’s our lived hermeneutic, isn’t it? We demonstrate our interpretation of the texts in the way we live them out. It doesn’t matter what we say we believe, if we live inconsistently from the values or truths we profess.
Thanks for the reminder that the podcast talked about things not being as horrible as we are constantly thinking they are. I’m not willing to accept that it’s as good as it should be (silly idealist) but it hasn’t all burned to the ground.
I have to remember to look with my eyes, too. What do I actually see going on right in front of my nose. Often very, very good things. Things I filter through my lenses of suspicion and doubt.
Today I get to go work at the Library. I love the work I get to do there with the people I get to work with. We are microscopically tiny in the big picture, but I get to do something I think is valuable and fulfilling, and is related to the long game. It’s easy to get distracted and feel like I’m not making any progress. But I’m working on some really neat projects that I think are of value, and some researcher or another will as well, and well into the future. So, it’s time to get ready…
I’m especially attracted to Curtis Chang’s praise for “institutions” and intend to explore the opportunities for my own service there, where “service” can be expressed in so many different ways.
What I find intriguing is the fact that the podcast comes so close on the heels of Timothy Paul Jones’ review of and response to Penner’s book, in Jone’s November 2019 paper: “The End of Apologetics?”
It was Jone’s article that pressed home the function of “church”, as the place where communal resources can get pooled to shelter, feed, and aid the poor. That function is, IMO, one of the most important functions. Sure, hearing the word–in Bible study and sermon–has been important and the “high church” venue for the sacraments has been important to me personally, but “church activities” as the potential “front line” I’ve never quite realized before.
There’s a reason for that, I see now. Raised among the Deaf until I was 12, church was mostly “a lot of talking” and the only one I ever saw “doing” anything was my step-mother. In my home by adoption, my father was “a small church” pastor, rarely with a congregation of more than 30-40 people, and none wealthy or activists. “Church” there was not front-line, by any means; more like a one-person medical clinic for “stray cats and dogs”.
Consequently, Jone’s article, describing the radical role and influence of the church in the first several centuries. readjusted my perspective of what “church” on the front-line could be and was. Memories of Tom Wright and Tom Holland’s Youtube exchange came back to me. I began realizing: “Dang! them early Christians put it all on the line, didn’t they?”
And again, Chang and French’s words keep coming back to me: “God plays the long game.” And that’s a theme in the LOTR too, isn’t it.
I’m especially attracted to Curtis Chang’s praise for “institutions” and intend to explore the opportunities for my own service there, where “service” can be expressed in so many different ways.
What I find intriguing is the fact that the podcast comes so close on the heels of Timothy Paul Jones’ review of and response to Penner’s book, in Jone’s November 2019 paper: “The End of Apologetics?”
It was Jone’s article that pressed home the function of “church”, as the place where communal resources can get pooled to shelter, feed, and aid the poor. That function is, IMO, one of the most important functions. Sure, hearing the word–in Bible study and sermon–has been important and the “high church” venue for the sacraments has been important to me personally, but “church activities” as the potential “front line” I’ve never quite realized before.
There’s a reason for that, I see now. Raised among the Deaf until I was 12, church was mostly “a lot of talking” and the only one I ever saw “doing” anything was my step-mother. In my home by adoption, my father was “a small church” pastor, rarely with a congregation of more than 30-40 people, and none wealthy or activists. “Church” there was not front-line, by any means; more like a one-person medical clinic for “stray cats and dogs”.
Consequently, Jone’s article, describing the radical role and influence of the church in the first several centuries. readjusted my perspective of what “church” on the front-line could be and was. Memories of Tom Wright and Tom Holland’s Youtube exchange came back to me. I began realizing: “Dang! them early Christians put it all on the line, didn’t they?”
And again, Chang and French’s words keep coming back to me: “God plays the long game.” And that’s a theme in the LOTR too, isn’t it.
Different authors, telling the story in different ways. . From this forum I’ve seen that Evangelicals and the author of the article pretty much miss the Christ figures in the LOTR books. And that’s okay, because the more subtle nature of themes in LOTR enabled it to fly beneath the radar of the enemies of religion: the LOTR films weren’t attacked in the way that The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe were.
Banned Book Week is this month, and it’s interesting that the LOTR books, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe have all been banned and/or challenged at some time in the United States.
@kendel What does your library do to mark Banned Book Week?
I see the Christ figures that people suggest are there I just disagree that they are authorial intent. For example, in all of Tolkien’s extant letters, he never mentions these suggested Jesus images once (at least to my knowledge). Why might that be? I would suggest that it is because most of what people find in LotR is a combination of reading it in and wishful thinking. Perhaps this is why, in my experience, 90% of Christians miss Tolkien’s most ‘most heroic character’… Samwise Gamgee (see a quick summary here in Answer #1).
So, if you want to read Jesus into the story be my guest. But I would suggest that finding Christ figures in LotR doesn’t make it Christian fiction any more than Neo’s death for the people of Zion makes The Matrix Revolution a Christian movie. Rather they are common character archetypes and narrative tropes that also happen to be present in the ‘true myth’ of the Bible (to borrow a phrase from Lewis). And that’s a good thing, as it helps us use the former to help people understand the latter.
Speaking for myself, no, that isn’t accurate. I don’t miss them at all. I simply don’t see allegory as the best way to understand the way the characters in the story function. No single character could be considered The Christ figure. Depending on the aspect of Christ’s person examined, a number of different characters are at one time of another Christ figures. Aragorn and Frodo in particular could be considered different aspects of a Christ figure, which I find structurally and theologically challenging. So, with the author of the book I set aside my tendency to seek allegory and have found the lens of World War 1 in particular simply brings greater unity to the various components of the entire work.
Iwas surprised, when I read the article, that someone else has seen that, too. I’ve never discussed the novels or studied them formally, just enjoyed them a number of times as a reader (and the movies, too, but for the battles–watched them at home, though so Icould FF past the gore).
As far as banned book week goes, because we are a research library (the division of it that Iwork in) that foucuses heavily on state information, book banning has not been a huge topic. I’m not sure what the statewide services folks do for the Public Libraries they service. Except for Claire, our library law specialist, who has been very busy giving guidance to library directors working under library boards, who want to slash collection development policies.
As far as programming and displays go, ours are more specific to our collections and how to do research here.
