I fully agree! It’s humbling, isn’t it!
@Jeremy_Lee, ‘It sucks, doesn’t it?’
Me: : ) aye Jeremy. Which makes faith more relevant. Most relevant. And how to express it avoiding conflict.
J: Pardon? Not sure I understood.
Me - I’m not surprised! I started a reply, but believe it or not I get tired of hearing my own voice. As I started to say, all I got is my story, partly splurged above. I keep thinking about identity. We acquire one, full of “I’m this, I think this, I do this, I am this”. Until, for some of us, that house of cards comes down. I acquired special identity through a cult, through a story that was able to absorb mine (or is it the other way around? Both.). And then it collapsed. When I came in to evangelical-charismatic Anglicanism after 7 very alcohol fuelled years (desperate for God) I felt like they knew something I didn’t. It took a couple or three more years to realise that they didn’t. It took a few more to realise that no one does. Years of men’s groups, home groups. We’re all in the same boat. Looking for meaning, for significance, for real transcendence. Life after death. And still, for me, just about, barely, Jesus is the Word of eternal life who has the words of eternal life. I actually like going to formal, liturgical services. With communion. As long as the hymns and other elements aren’t too long and if they can’t be real (honest, ‘Me too!’) then at least they aren’t unpleasant and no silly claims are made. I have no other expectations of church. None at all. Friendship, the meeting of minds, knowing and being known are all utterly impossible. Illusory when we think we have them. So, what’s left? How can faith be expressed meaningfully? For me it was in the social gospel. And ignoring all the nonsense and trying to find ways of deconstructing and reconstructing it in my head to be positive to my peers. Haven’t had any conflict for 10 years of that. Giving respect to those who have less. 1% of my time. Covid has stopped that. So I come here for my sins : ) Where managing conflict is more… problematic : ) But resonating with others like you is still to be desired.
Does any of this resonate?
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Certainly does. When I hear people who say they have it all together, I automatically think they are lying. The infinite is too big to understand in its whole, all we can hope for it to come to peace with that little part we can grasp.
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too humbling. it means we cherish our position more than truth sometimes
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Aye, self deception is essential for getting by. I distrust the sane, those with perfect lives. There are bodies under the patio one way or the other. Including under a layer of magical thinking. Once I’ve journaled an apropos anecdote I’ll add it to the thread.
Hi Jeremy, I had a religious mom and an atheistic father. Although my dad got “somewhat” spiritual near the end, but still with “questions”.
As for your “search”… keep in mind that our religion is based on “faith”. So, the plan is that we are saved by faith alone! What you need to look for is divine revelations. The Holy Spirit is our “Teacher and Comforter” . and is with us to the end! The promise is there.
There is no “overwhelming” evidence of evolution. And dinosaurs lived with man before the “great flood”. I suggest watching, Kent Hovind on YT, or his website: https://drdino.com/ . You will be intrigued and fascinated by his knowledge and faith for our Lord and Creation! God’s Peace & blessings, Ron
P.S. sorry for all the: " "s
Seriously? I never knew you were a YEC, Ron. I thought you were Catholic and I didn’t think any of them were hung up on evolution. That can’t be comfortable to live with in the modern world.
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Didn’t somebody talk about showing faith (hence my comment to Jeremy) by being a righteous, i.e. socially just person? That that is the only measure of faith?
Not where we are on the YEC-ID-TE-EC spectrum.
Can anyone here point the pursuit of true faith? Show where it’s happening?
Is anybody actually doing that anywhere?
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minor point … I’m not aware of any distinction between TE and EC. They refer to the same ideas and are synonyms of each other, though good reasons are given for preferring the EC label over the TE one.
In case that wasn’t rhetorical and you were really wanting an answer … I would say: Jesus. He’s in pursuit of true faith in anybody / everybody - even just a mustard seed’s worth … and the question for us is: “Is he finding any?”
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Jesus commands everyone to repent (turn) from all unbelief, doubt, sin and put all their trust in Him.
Jesus calls us to come and die with Him.
As we trust, love and obey Him, doubts (unbelief), sin, the carnal nature are put to death. We are set free from our old master, no longer a slave to those things that bound us and we are set at liberty in Christ. For freedom sake, Christ set us free.
In reference to the statement, “Doubt is a requirement in faith.” I would have to say that God’s opinion is the opposite. Doubt is unbelief and unbelief is never something that is commended or told we should have. We start out in this world controlled by the fleshly nature and a carnal mind which is not subject to God and can’t be. We are so easily persuaded to doubt God and what He has said and done. The remedy for doubt (unbelief) is to have absolute certainty that God is who He has revealed Himself to be, in the history that scripture shows us of how He revealed Himself to mankind. But thanks to God through our Lord Jesus that He has given us the way by which we may be delivered from our unbelief (doubt), Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Thomas was rebuked for his doubt. John 20:25But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe. " 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Heb 10:35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, (shrinking back is unbelief) I will not be pleased with him." 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. (The following shows faith is certainty) 11 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see . 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
Rom 4:20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded (certain) that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Abraham was fully persuaded.)
From Genesis to Revelation, God reveals Himself through the things He said, did and foretold. He is gracious and merciful enough to do this for us, so that we would have faith, confidence and certainty towards Him, so that we would no longer trust in mankind, ourselves or this present age.
Jesus is our salvation. To know Jesus is to know the Father. His words are life everlasting. Jesus has made it plain, if through trust, love and obedience you walk in step with the Spirit of God, You Will Know The Father.
Jesus calls us to die with Him, both in reality in the everyday moments of this present age and also in truth through His death on the cross. By this death we will also be united with Him in His resurrection.
The death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus are our, FREEEEEEEEEEDOM!
So Thomas was unsaved? How about John(while he was in prison)? How about me?
You’re misinterpreting what the bible means by doubt. What Totti meant was that you literally CANNOT have faith in anything without doubt. Faith without doubt is certainty, not faith. To add to this it is actually false certitude.
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In your understanding, what do the scriptures mean by doubt?
In the Greek it’s diakrinō: To separate, discriminate, etc. To withdraw yourself. To separate yourself in a hostile spirit.
What Totti meant was to understand that you could be wrong, but have faith anyway.
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Don’t forget, the Bible wasn’t written in 21st century English. It’s been through an enormous amount of scribe rewriting, translation, and (in the case of the translation you are using) transliteration.
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NT:1252 diakrino (dee-ak-ree’-no); from NT:1223 and NT:2919; to separate thoroughly, i.e. (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively, to discriminate (by implication, decide), or (reflexively) hesitate:
Here is a couple of times Jesus used that word. I am not trying to get in a word battle with anyone, my intent is to help increase trust in the Father and the Son. So try to listen without any negative or harsh thought toward what I am expressing.
Matt 14:31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?” (separate thoroughly from trust, withdraw from trust, oppose trust, discriminate or hesitate from trust.)
Matt 21:21 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt,( same statement as above parenthesis) not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
My understanding of your original post was that you were having a struggle with a confidence ( faith) that God exists along side the desire for Him to be real. So from that understanding my posts have been to encourage you with the Word of God to increase your knowledge and confidence in Him. The scriptures I presented were to point out that doubt towards God is to withdraw from Him, or oppose Him, discriminate or decide against Him or to hesitate in your trust in Him. So when He commands us not to doubt Him but to have confidence or faith in Him that is a boost to my faith. His command is telling me I should rid myself of all doubt and to press on in certainty towards Him, which creates faith in me. My enemy is anything that tries to come between me and confidence in the Father to do as He said He would do.
Now if someone says, “I don’t understand this or that about God” I don’t consider that doubt but it’s lack of knowledge and understanding. In which case the resolution of that will be the same as it is for doubt, flooding our minds with the words of Jesus and then obeying what we understand and as He said, “to those who have more will be given.” As we obey Him out of love and trust than He and the Father will come and live in us and reveal themselves to us. This will remove those things in us that are contrary to the Father and we will be building our house on a foundation that cannot be shaken.
Everything I have said was to encourage you and myself in the faith.
But what you don’t understand is that quoting a bunch of scriptures to a person like myself is completely ineffective. Also, defining God’s character to me is equally ineffective. You haven’t addressed the root cause of my doubt. You are using circular reasoning, trying to prove you’re right and I’m wrong
For God to be real, he must have this type of character. If he has that character, that must mean he’s real. And if he’s real then he must have this character… how long does this go on?
You’re asking someone who is in doubt about the authenticity of scripture to find his answers IN SCRIPTURE! That’s completely ineffective.
There’s a very good reason why I asked a specific question in my OP. I have been a student of theology for 20 some years, I know what scripture says. I’m looking for an answer that negates the argument that said scripture wasn’t just a hoax, or a way to start a movement of like minded people.
And… don’t say that this couldn’t be true. You say it’s true of EVERY other religion that you disagree with. Don’t have the hubris to say that you couldn’t be wrong.
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I just want to add, I grew up in a pastor’s home. I preached my first message at 15 years old. I was offered a pastoral position when I was 17. You aren’t talking to a new Christian who just needs a little encouragement.
I’m in this position because i started to realize that i was lied to about much of Genesis (as well as other books). I then perpetrated that myth for many years (which makes me feel incredibly guilty).
When you’ve been entrenched in something, and lived your whole life EXTREMELY loyal and faithful to that thing for over 35 years, and then you find out that a great majority of it was a load of… well… it makes you question all of the rest of it as well.
So don’t get all high and mighty on me… that’s exactly what made me a skeptic in the first place.
Excuse my bluntness. Some of these responses have brought up a lot of the reasons I am in this position to begin with.
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No, it really isn’t. And if you read the Psalms and the Prophets they are filled with prayers calling out to God with doubts and laments.
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To many of the other responders, thank you for your humility and understanding. I know many of you went through this exact situation (or at least very similar).
You are my heros.
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Yes! Yes! Yes! It’s evident that scripture does not describe doubt the way our 21st century English does.