Help: I’m on a slippery slope

[gbob]

@Christy

So you are really going to double down and say that we really do experience emotion in our kidneys? That’s where an undying commitment to concordism will get you. Or you could just embrace a non-concordist approach and accept that it isn’t criticizing the Bible to acknowledge that ancients believed the kidneys were the emotional center. It’s part of good hermeneutics and figuring out the communicative intent of the passage, which was not in anyway intended to be an anatomy lesson. Translating “kidney” as “inner being” is perfectly appropriate and reflects the meaning.

No, I am saying what modern science says, our kidneys affect our central nervous system.
I am uncertain whether or not the Neolithics would have distinguished between the kidneys proper and the adrenal gland sitting right on top of it. Adrenal problems are often emotional problems Cushing Syndrome causes Moodiness, irritability, or depression. What I am saying is that I can understand how they would think the kidney are responsible for emotions. All that is, is misinterpretation of cause and effect, something we moderns are not completely polly pure on either. Consider the H, pylori and ulcers issue. The poor guy was telling everyone that stress didn’t cause ulcers, H. pylori does. But no one believed him. It took years for his idea to be accepted. That too was mix up of cause and effect.

So here is the thing Christy, You effectively clucked your tongue at the stupidty of kidneys being involved in emotions and cognition. The Neolithics had said they thought the emotions were in the kidneys, yet kidneys can affect emotions. It is odd that you are not also criticizing the Bible for beleiving that thinking lies in the heart as well. I looked up Ps 73:21 which is on the page you refer people to says this: "When my heart was embittered, and I was pierced within;" Translating this as kidney doesn’t mean one thinks with kidneys "When my heart was embittered and I was pierced in my kidneys." Maybe he had back pain. But was his heart really embittered? What does an embittered heart look like–I could use this to say the Bible is silly, but I could also say, it is a euphemism like the Mandarin word for brave–Da Danzi–Big Gall bladder. All languages have euphemisms about body parts.

Jeremiah 11:20 But, O YHWH of hosts, who judges righteously, who tries the feelings and the heart, let me see Your vengeance on them, for to You have I committed my cause."

It was the translator who decided to equate kidney with feelings. Translating it without that bias says:

Jeremiah 11:20 But, O YHWH of hosts, who judges righteously, who tries the kidney and the heart, let me see Your vengeance on them, for to You have I committed my cause."

Remember, kidneys of animals were removed in the priestly rituals, and Jeremiah might have been referring to that. see Lev. 3:1-4. You give no thought to this, preferring instead to see the Bible in the worst possible light. If Jeremiah was talking about God judging the kidneys of sacrificed animals, then this verse says nothing about feelings. In my mind, your autopilot default position is to chose the most awful interpretation possible for the Bible when other options are possible. Why do this?

A possible example of selectively choosing the worst for the bible problem, You only pick on the Bible for its use of kidney. What about the heart? We no more think with the heart than with the kidneys? But you didn’t criticize the Bible for using another non-cognitive organ. Is it perchance because we still talk about our heart being broken by a romantic partner, or say 'in my heart, or in my gut, I feel we should do xyz?" The heart clearly shows the euphemistic nature of these verses you sent me to in that article. Clearly these are euphemisms and the same for the Hebrews. When someone says, "My gut tells me we should do this." Does that mean they are thinking in their intestines? Why not criticize moderns for doing that if it is ok to criticize Scripture for it? It seems double minded to criticize the ancients for their euphemisms, but not also criticize moderns for the same thing! In my opinion, accommodationalists are awfully close to atheists. Yall use the same arguments I heard from atheists back in my crisis of faith. Indeed, I can hardly tell the difference except that yall believe in God in spite of all these problems and they don’t believe in God because of all these problems. . Gotta go. leaving in 30 m. Yall take care.

[Jay313 (Jay Johnson)]

@gbob

Did you even read the quote I put up? sheesh, the answer is there. That is your homework–to read that quote.

Haha. Sorry you didn’t understand my humor. I don’t need to do the homework, but if you want a real reply, here goes:

@gbob

Are we trying to compare who knows more about Wittgenstein?

@gbob

I don’t know how many languages you have learned, but I learned Mandarin largely on the street.

Why does it seem everything comes down to a resume-measuring contest (euphemism alert!) with you? But, just FYI, I am certified to teach ESL (English as a Second Language) in two different states.

@gbob

I learned it the way God taught Adam to speak–by learning the names of things. Our de novo Adam was brought all the animals for naming.

Nope. Back to what Christy said: “You cannot communicate something that is not linked to any existing knowledge, experience, or words.” Your example depends on the fact that you already had an existing, “native” language as a peg on which to hang your new knowledge of Mandarin. Imagine having no language, not even knowing what a “name” was.

But, to return to your example, you were learning conversational Mandarin. Now, after six months or so of that, imagine being dropped into a university lecture on a topic you knew nothing about. How much of the lecture would you have understood? Probably around 10-25% of it. That’s what it would have been like for the ancient Hebrews to receive a Genesis with modern scientific concepts embedded in it. I doubt the document would’ve survived 100 years before being forgotten.

I won’t even get into all the problems of God teaching Adam (and Eve) to speak, let alone placing the original pair so far back in history that they might have been able to name the animals, but not much else that we observe of them in Scripture.

@gbob

“Even among chimpanzees, the sound production appears to be controlled in the brain by the ancient structures of the limbic system and the brain stem … It is also dependent upon rules of grammar, syntax and so forth that are totally absent from the sound combinations chimpanzees make. So, no. Not only do chimpanzees not have language; they don’t even have an incipient form of it.” - Tattersall

Of course, chimps do not have language, but the Tattersall quote implies that vocalizations and modern language are the only measures of communication. Chimp vocalizations are inborn, but gestures are learned, and chimps communicate through both means, just as human beings also communicate through gesture, posture, glance, etc.

The more interesting difference is that primate communication is dyadic (one-to-one) and mainly consists of requesting specific behaviors from others. Chimps do not hold up objects for other chimps to consider, nor do they point at things to draw attention to them. Human communication, on the other hand, is entirely learned. More significantly, it is triadic and referential, focused on sharing information and psychological states with others.

I could go on, but that would mean giving you some homework. Not sure you’re up to that! Get well soon!

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

@gbob

So here is the thing Christy, You effectively clucked your tongue at the stupidty of kidneys being involved in emotions and cognition.

Not really. I don’t think it’s stupid at all to associate your guts with emotions, because you feel stuff there. We talk about butterflies in our stomachs when we are nervous and our stomach dropping when we are hit with bad news. It’s not scientifically accurate to say kidneys are the source of emotions. Who cares? I don’t go to the Bible expecting a biology lesson, so those kind of “inaccuracies” don’t effect the truth of the message. I know the ANE saw the heart as the seat of thought. So what? It’s not “criticizing the Bible” to acknowledge those realities. The Bible wasn’t teaching neurology. It is generally bad translation to translate the Hebrew as kidneys when the meaning is clearly “source of emotions” or as heart when the meaning is clearly “mind or soul.” You translate using the comparable cultural parallel.

@gbob

You give no thought to this, preferring instead to see the Bible in the worst possible light.

See the Bible in the worst possible light? I’m a freaking Wycliffe Bible Translator, for crying out loud! I’ve given the best years of my life to live in a drug war zone with very few modern conveniences BECAUSE I LOVE THE BIBLE. Stop.

Figurative language is based on our underlying conceptual metaphors. I do understand how figurative language works and would love to discuss it, but it sounds like you have other things to do than fritter away time here, so I will leave it alone for the time being.

[Randy]

@Christy

We talk about butterflies in our stomachs when we are nervous and our stomach dropping when we are hit with bad news. It’s not scientifically accurate to say kidneys are the source of emotions. Who cares? I don’t go to the Bible expecting a biology lesson,

So, since we can do kidney transplants, can I change a politician’s mind by transplanting kidneys? Or, would a laxative help?

Sorry if that’s too snarky; hope it’s taken with a light sense of humor @gbob. In seriousness, in medicine we do frequently see transplants, and we don’t expect to see personality changes with them. Nice idea, though. And maybe there is something to that down the road; it would require some serious study before acceptance, though. Certainly, our bodies are complicated beyond belief. You certainly make me think hard. Thank you.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

Interesting thoughts about politicians. I suppose after kidney removal, patients would be very stoic also.
Obviously, people with kidney failure are typically quite seriously ill, and the various physical problems certainly do affect you emotionally and mentally. Same can be said for just about all serious metabolic problems, however.

@gbob, you will be in our prayers. We pray for your comfort and healing, and appreciate your insights. M. D. Anderson does great work, and I have had many patients treated there who have been very pleased with their care. I wish I lived a bit nearer, as I live 4 hours from Houston, but if we can assist in your journey, let us know. Peace.

[Randy]

@jpm

@gbob, you will be in our prayers. We pray for your comfort and healing, and appreciate your insights. M. D. Anderson does great work, and I have had many patients treated there who have been very pleased with their care. I wish I lived a bit nearer, as I live 4 hours from Houston, but if we can assist in your journey, let us know. Peace.

Amen to all that, @gbob, especially the prayers.

[reviC (Carol Baker)]

Hi Lost and Found, Thank you for sharing some of your concerns, I’m so glad to find that you have shared some of my own concerns. I was raised in a literal Biblical interpretation and interestingly enough went to a Catholic Nursing School where evolution wasn’t taught, but having been confronted with in it High School, I had chosen to believe the Bible literally and figured Science would catch up to the Bible too, however after getting a degree in Ministry and deciding to learn Hebrew, which I did through a local temple since my school didn’t offer Hebrew or Greek classes, I began studying Genesis using Hebrew and began to see the possibility that God could have used evolution in creation, that opened the door for me to find peace with Science, so continue your studying and questioning, don’t be afraid to ask questions when seeking truth, I’m continuing to do the same, I do appreciate John Waltons theory of Gen 1 as being a Temple text, therefore placing it within the scope of Moses who was charged with the building of the Tabernacle. I still have a ton of questions, but will continue to seek answers, I hope you do too!