Hell , death and the 2nd death?

Good advice. I guess the problem in this case, is that knowing what “truth” is, is nebulous as the Bible is not clear on the subject, and scriptural support can be made for various views. Perhaps that is purposeful.

6 Likes

You may want to order the book " Conditional Immortality: Biblical Proof of Annihilation in Hell" from Amazon. It was written by a Messianic Jewish Rabbi by the name of Douglas Barry. I just wanted to add this information. The Protestant Translator William Tyndale accepted this view.

2 Likes

Oh, I wanted to mention something about two forms of Judaism: Reform and Conservative. They believe that Hell is the nearly the same as Roman Catholic purgatory. The souls (Greek Philosophy definition) go to Gan Eden (Garden of Eden or heaven) after a year, I believe. I just thought you would be interested. If there are any Jewish people here, you are welcome to respond to this.

1 Like

Are you a minister, my friend?

1 Like

I have a calling

Even in the first century, the number of people saved was debated. Some rabbis maintained that “all Israelites have a share in the world to come,” while others said that “the world to come” was created by God only for a select few. John Stott is one prominent evangelical theologian who believed in annihilation after a finite period of punishment.

My personal view is still under development (so don’t quote me), but it’s along these lines:

  1. The human being is not composed of body + soul. Rather, we are a “complex unity,” in the words of J.R. Middleton. (See his blog post Paul on the “Soul”—Not What You Might Think)
  2. “The man” does not receive a soul/spirit from God in Genesis 2.7. Rather, the passage merely teaches that we, like the animals, are made of earth and owe our lives (breath) to God, our Creator. (See Middleton, Humans Created Mortal, with the Possibility of Eternal Life)
  3. When Jesus breathes on the disciples and says, “Receive the Holy Spirit,” in John 20, he is deliberately re-enacting Gen. 2.7. As Jesus explained to Nicodemus in chapter 3 of that same gospel, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God… What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’" Our spiritual birth occurs when the Holy Spirit indwells our body.
  4. Jesus and the NT also refer to the new birth using metaphors of what was dead coming to life. Examples: “the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life,” “We know that we have crossed over from death to life because we love our fellow Christians. The one who does not love remains in death,” “Let the dead bury their own dead … you go and proclaim the kingdom of God,” etc. The person without the Spirit of God is mere flesh and blood, which cannot inherit the kingdom of God. (Just as we won’t see our pets in “heaven,” but you don’t have to tell that truth to a 4-yr-old! Perhaps that’s why it is ambiguous, Phil. The entire human race is not spiritually mature enough to handle the truth!)
  5. There is (probably) no intermediate state, where our souls are “in heaven” with Jesus and our bodies are in the grave. Wright and Middleton somewhat disagree on this point, with Wright in favor of some kind of conscious existence after death but before the resurrection, and Middleton in favor of something resembling unconsciousness during sleep. Simply, we close our eyes in death, and open them to the resurrection. (See Middleton’s blog post, What about the Intermediate State in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8?)
  6. When the last trumpet sounds, those who died in Christ rise, and those who are living are changed. (This is likely what is meant by the “first resurrection” in Rev. 20.)
  7. Afterward, “the dead,” great and the small, are seen standing before the throne for judgment. (This is likely the “second resurrection.”) Notice that it is “the dead” who are “judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.” It is my opinion that the only people being judged are those who did not participate in the first resurrection. They were “dead” even when they were living, from Jesus’ perspective. (John 5.24 again: “whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”)
  8. Finally, “the second death—the lake of fire.” Personally, I am more and more coming to think that this is a true second death, or annihilation.

Since I quote our friend @JRM extensively, perhaps I should offer him the chance to correct me if I have misstated his views.

EDIT: Final thought: if you believe that the human being is composed of body + immortal soul/spirit, then you cannot escape the concept of eternal conscious existence in hell, however you choose to conceive of hell. That something immortal should cease to exist is a contradiction.

6 Likes

Fine scholar. Jay is a fine scholar too. Don’t belittle yourself, Friend.

1 Like

I assume you mean Middleton… I’m simply a reporter. A fancified mockingbird, if you will.

Replying to edit: Thank you, but all the hard work in the original languages was done by others. At best, I hope to harvest what they have sowed, but we shall all rejoice together in the end.

2 Likes

instantaneous resurrection or intermediate body? 2 Corinthians 5:1-10?

1 Like

See point #5 above. Follow the link to Middleton’s blog post on that passage. He spells it out pretty clearly.

2 Likes

@Mervin_Bitikofer, @beaglelady, @Christy, @Randy, @1god,@jpm

I have read Dr. Middleton and I must say that he and I do not totally agree. I see one of three things here: dichotomy, instantaneous resurrection supported by Dr. Juergen Moltmann and Dr. Thomas Long of Emory University School of Divinity, or intermediate body that is eternal and covers our spirits to the Second Advent. The intermediate body and the spirit will reunite with the body in the grave causing the transformation of the body in the grave. I will not write any more about dichotomy since you already know that. You probably understand the intermediate body. I will approach Dr. Moltmann’s view and that of Dr. Long. We must remember that time and eternity are not the same. Therefore, what appears as future to us may be already in existence for the dead. Please read Colossians 3: 1-4. Dr. Long wrote a book called " A Company Them With Singing: The Christian Funeral. I would encourage you to purchase this book from Amazon and read pages 52-55. I believe you will enjoy this. It is both theology and science. When my father died April 16 1985, I was with him and my mother. I looked at his eyes and I said: My God, daddy is dying. His eyes had rolled back in his head. The nurse was young and too afraid the yell " for help; therefore, I went on the intercom and called for help. I wrote my father’s funeral; however, I did not deliver it. The Rev. Scott Goode delivered the sermon. He knew my beliefs at the time and he praised the sermon I wrote. I used 2 Corinthians 4: 18 through 2 Corinthians 5:10. At the end of my sermon, Scott said: It is my belief that Charles Miller, aged 56 years, has today a new body. Scott believed as I did at the time that time and eternity were not the same. If you have an NIV, please read Colossians 3:1-4. Notice it says that those in Christ are hidden with Him. And where is Jesus, he is in heaven; therefore, they too are there if we accept Moltmann’s and Long’s view. I no longer accept this position now that I believe in a body to be resurrected and a spirit living in heaven till then. The United Methodist Church holds the view of the instantaneous resurrection. I am now going to rest since I feel ill. God bless. Charles Edward Miller, Jr.

1 Like

Good thoughts. I pray you are feeling better when you wake. The period between death and the resurrection should be called the “indeterminate state,” not the intermediate state. We make our best judgment based upon the limited information God has given us in the scriptures, but I have the feeling none of us will really know until we try “the great event.”

Psalm 131
A song of ascents. Of David.
1 My heart is not proud, Lord,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
2 But I have calmed and quieted myself,
I am like a weaned child with its mother;
like a weaned child I am content.

3 Israel, put your hope in the Lord
both now and forevermore.

3 Likes

Outside of the Scriptures, does anyone think that Near Death Experiences should be part of our discussion (NDEs)? There’s a lot in the Wikipedia entry:

Seems about as murky as…

2 Likes

I would be willing for such a discussion. I have a story to tell about my mother when she left this world in December 2006.

1 Like

You have accurately represented my views here.

3 Likes

It’s good that you prefaced this quote from Psalm 131 with the words “we make our best judgment.” The point of the image of the weaned child is that it is not totally dependent on its mother’s milk for feeding, but can get its own food. The child is beginning to grow up.

A number of biblical scholars have suggested that this psalm was written by a woman, and that it would be appropriate to Hannah, who prayed directly to the Lord and did not need the mediation of the priest Eli (she was weaned from dependency on the priesthood; she thus exemplified the priesthood of the believer). Speculation, but interesting speculation.

3 Likes

Yes, that is interesting speculation. My first thought was that I doubted women were taught to write, but then I realized that there’s no reason to believe the poem couldn’t have been spoken by her and written down by someone else. It’s sometimes hard to mentally switch gears between our modern “written” culture and the ancient “oral” culture. I wonder how much of the Bible started out as oral tradition that was later written down? I bet the percentage would be high enough to shock a lot of folks.

3 Likes

Literacy would have been a specialized enough skill that one of the obvious roles held by a literate person was to read aloud for all others to hear. So much so, in fact, that the phrase “read aloud” would have been redundant up through the time of Christ. Even if you were alone, “to read” was to give voice to what you were reading. Some early monk (can’t remember who) was caught once reading silently and those who observed it thought it the strangest, almost magical new skill as it had not occurred to them that reading could ever be a separate activity from verbalizing what was read. So I guess your local scribe was the nearest thing anybody had to a “book on tape.” (okay – “audio book” for all you young folks.)

Sorry to continue on the tangent, but I just thought your observations were interesting. I’ve sometimes wondered similar things about, say, who recorded the Magnificat (initially a private utterance only the presence of Elizabeth, wasn’t it?) which itself is a pretty good echo of Hannah’s prayer.

3 Likes

Great anecdote. And believe it or not, “sustained silent reading” is a skill that must be learned.

Today, we consider someone “literate” when they can both read and write. But in the ancient world, those skills were thought of separately. Many people could read but couldn’t write, since that was considered a scribal skill taught in formal schools. We know Jesus could read, but could he write? (The incident with the woman caught in adultery is a later addition to John’s gospel, so Jesus scribbling in the dirt there doesn’t tell us anything one way or the other.)

On the Magnificat (Luke 1.46-55) and Zechariah’s prophecy (1.67-79), I suspect that a form of each was spoken at the time, written down some time later, and given final form by Luke.

1 Like

All I can conclude about this topic is that in this life, one man’s hell seems to be another man’s heaven. Maybe the door between Heaven and Hell is unlocked on both sides and everyone get one chance to change their mind.

1 Like