The parable of Lazarus, yes . .and from my perspective it seems a parable …
It does seem to me Jesus was trying to convey the gap (gulf) between life and death , more than a literal torture chamber hell …but I’m well into speculation on that
You may be right – to be honest, the idea of me sitting in heaven and looking down on tortured individuals sounds horrible, and not in keeping with the character of Jesus either. So I don’t assume this story actually happened. It just makes me wonder considering how many other parables Jesus tells that may not have really happened but still seem to take place among realistic settings, with characters and situations that would really have happened – I have to wonder why he would portray hell in a way it was not. Unless it’s like Revelation and some things are just too much for us to comprehend, thus we need allegory.
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The basic question is “Does everyone go to heaven or only a few?” If the answer is a few does it really matter what happens to the many? To me the point has always been the many are separated from God. That is the ultimate “torture” and it really doesn’t matter if it is for a short period of time or eternity. To be honest I think a lot of the preaching on hell is a not subtle form of applying pressure to the unsaved and/or keeping the saved in line.
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Just as an aside, I have been reading Wright’s biography of Paul , and one thing he commented on was how little Paul’s writings discussed heaven or hell, but how he focused on the Kingdom of God in the here and now. I know that is a theme of Wright’s, but it is good to think about as we live our lives. By the way, it is an enjoyable book, and easy reading coming from Wright.
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I kind of get the impression he was saying " you can’t pass stuff into the afterlife " perhaps in reflection of the Egyptian traditions of placing items in the grave…though the man was rich , it did him no good , it counted for nothing in the end , nothing could pass the barriers , not even a drop of water .that he should have followed proverbs 10:2
Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death…
Along those lines …but again , I speculate
I posted this in another thread, but it seems fitting here.
Like you, eternal suffering doesn’t seem to go along with the entire biblical narrative. Jesus conquered death. To say that people live on to sin for eternity, seems to contradict that. Is sin now more powerful than Jesus? Can the love of God transform only some, but not all?
I think when the scriptures say that every knee will bow, I think this is after many years, when all have been purified and have experienced the transforming love of God.
Now as to Satan and the angels being forever in hell, I think that might be true. An analogy that comes to mind is my children. No matter if your child is Hitler, you still want them to repent. But if your arm decides to turn on you, you will cut it off, and don’t want to ever re-attach it. I see angels as an extension of God’s body, which He uses to get things done, but when they turn on Him, He cut them off, never to be re-attached. But no matter how bad your child screws up, you love them and want them to repent. You don’t need them to suffer nor any intermediary to suffer for them, you want repentant, living right. God doesn’t require us to suffer, nor did He require Jesus to suffer. Jesus did suffer in living here and conquering the powers of darkness, but it wasn’t the suffering that was required, but was endured to bring about a purpose. But maybe I am more of an annihilationist when it comes to the fallen angels?
But we don’t know much about angels/demons, so I could be wrong of them too.
But the important part which I think you said in a different post is that this is just brain candy. It is neat to discuss and chew on, but it doesn’t really benefit us. The goal is the live the repentant life, love God with all our hearts, minds, souls, strength, and put the well being of our neighbors above our own. That is the love of God that will flow through us, through the Spirit Jesus gave us, that will save anyone who needs to be saved, but more importantly, glorify Him who wants us all to live that way.
I am a Christian, I believe in the saving power of Jesus while I am living, but I don’t think, nor am I motivated to act to ensure others know Jesus in this life or face eternal damnation. I still do want people to know Jesus in the life though, but because He is life, He makes this current life and the life to come more abundant. I wish all to know the love of God and wish they could see it in me. Where they end up eternally is not of my concern, nor should it be, that is for God to decide.
Maybe I do end up in hell for eternity for interpreting the Bible wrong. So be it, I live to honor my Creator (or want to) and if He wants me in hell, that is were I belong. My main sorrow would not glorifying Him with my fullest extent. I think we all deserve hell and eternal punishment for being so greatly unworthy of God. Thankfully God is loving, just and merciful, and sent His Son so we don’t have to live a live separated form Him. So I don’t think I will be in hell, but again, it isn’t about final destination, but on earth now, my eyes have been opened, I am living in heaven, I am living with my Creator, attempting to honor Him in all I do, dragged down my this flesh which will one ay be gone and I will be able to truly honor Him in all I do.
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I agree , Satan , and his agents are not the same as humans , and the same gifts don’t apply .
I also agree , I am not a reaper to separate the wheat from the tares , not my duty
Also agree , I love God for what he has already given me , if this life is all I’m given , I’m already thankful , anything else God grants me " is gravy" …if I’m judged unworthy of anything more , he has already saved me in this life ,again and again .
I find this subject relevant when it comes to ministering ,Bible studies , consolation to the greived , etc etc … When someone asks me , I like to be able to answer as accurately as I can , so my ignorance in answering doesn’t hinder someone else .
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An eternal punishment does seem a disproportionate judgement for a finite crime from an omnibenevolent God.
Philosophically speaking, at least.
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Wow, that sounds way better than the way I put it.
I understand, so this thread is more from an apologetic stance than a self searching standpoint?
I think @Mervin_Bitikofer nailed this one with…
The overall picture is that God wants us to be righteous, He wants us to be image bearers. But at our current state, we can’t, we need to repent.
In John 8 when the woman is brought before Him, He showed mercy and ‘commanded’ (not sure if the right word) repentance. He wants us all to “go and sin no more”. Do you think there will be sin in hell? Why would God want a place full of sin forever? Didn’t He conquer sin? Is sin now stronger than He? That is the questions I ask to anyone who brings up eternal hell/suffering.
And then I usually throw in Job, of how His ways our higher than ours, and we just need to trust Him in the now, and not worry about the end. And I mention how we are to be disciples, preach the gospel, good news, how Jesus conquered death and can change our lives now AND in the life to come. We are not to preach how to avoid eternal punishment if that is even a thing. Jesus is not fire insurance when we die, He is a rescue life saver being thrown to us now.
What is hell, my opinions/interpretations don’t save me, just as your (generic term) opinions/interpretations don’t save you. It is knowledge of, that leads to actions that saves, saves us from life apart from Him now. Sorry, I tire of the narrative that Christians believe what we do to get a reward in the afterlife.
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There is a recent Netflix movie on the subject: Come Sunday. It is the story of one of Oral Roberts’ proteges in the Pentecostal church who suddenly changed his mind about hell after hearing what he believed was the voice of God. Not endorsing the theology, but one of the few movies you’ll ever see that actually wrestles with Christian doctrine.
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If I lead someone astray because of my ignorance , then I myself carry the folly …as well as risk those they pass it on to .
For examples :
When a widow asks you if her husband is suffering in hell for eternity , or worse ,someone has told her that her husband is damned , it would be prudent to comfort her with truth rather than lie to her …even in ignorance .
Or when a child asks why God wants people to burn for stealing .
I would rather be able to stand on scripture and the study of , rather than loose or faulty interpretation .
A scripture on it …
2 Corinthians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
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I have seen people lose faith because of well-meaning Christians who “spoke the truth” but forgot “in love.” There is a time and a place for everything. There is a time to comfort the grieving, and a time to teach doctrine. Do you tell your wife her new skirt makes her legs look fat? Timing is everything, my brother. Sometimes, it’s better to say “I don’t know” than to crush another’s spirit in the name of truth. The truth can wait until the right time. It is patient, like love.
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Agreed ,again scripture …
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
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Frankly , I’m no good at preaching hellfire and damnation at people , I find it distasteful .
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My nephew recently lost his first child , he called and asked several questions , very distraught.
" Is my baby going to hell " and " why did God take away my child " …
It was scripture that came to me in that moment …
" Suffer the children to come unto me and forbid them not " …and …“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.” …
It gave him comfort and peace , his faith remains solid …
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I don’t know if you will find too many scriptures that say they won’t be in hell for eternity. Again, it is more of the entire narrative of God’s love that preaches against this. But comfort comes from the great comforter, not in our explanation of the unknown. Show the love of God to them, let them see God in you and be comforted in Him.
I would say they them that I don’t think so personally, here is why…I would then be able to preach the gospel to them, or if they know it, put emphasis on the narrative as a whole, not a few key verses.
I would also say to ignore that rude remark, it sounds like it comes from pride of "knowing the answers’ rather than in love and compassion.
And you should have an answer ready for your hope, when asked. One, I don’t think a mourning widow asks you that. Two, the hope you have and certainty of the eternal location is another.
You can’t lead anyone astray by telling them the hope you have, the love you have for others comes from God, Jesus lived on this earth to show us the way, ultimately leading to His death. He is now alive and His spirit lives inside us to help us.
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Hello Mervin,
It depends on your view of eschatology. Perhaps you already know these views; however, I will give them in case he would like to hear them.
- It’s a place of eternal fire and torment.
- There is no torturous fire in this spiritual realm. It is a place of darkness and lacks the presence of God.
- Annihilation is another view. The spirits of all the dead return to their bodies. The Last Judgment takes place. The just live forever in heaven on the new earth, the unsaved are cast in the Lake of Fire and body and spirit are consumed ( Matthew 10:28). Some Messianic Jews also accept this.
- The unsaved are giving a second chance. They will admit they were wrong about Jesus. Everyone will go to heaven. This is similar to Messianic Judaism. Regular Jews do not have Christ; however, their interpretation is similar. These come from the book 100 Tough Questions about God and the Bible by Stephan M. Miller, BA, MRE. No relation to me.
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Let me take a moment to say thank you ALL for your insights and perspectives on this subject ,and to the mods for allowing this topic so much room .
I too find the idea of annihilation to be more sound , it’s nice to see the variations of faiths represented here in biologos to carry similar perspectives.
Ultimately , that God is not wasteful or sadistic , but in the least , surgical in judgement.
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Good advice. I guess the problem in this case, is that knowing what “truth” is, is nebulous as the Bible is not clear on the subject, and scriptural support can be made for various views. Perhaps that is purposeful.
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