Which means that if you are not Arabic you cannot understand the Koran because even if you learn Arabic as a second language you are still translating it to your own native tongue…
Richard
Great! You know that and I know that. Now I nominate you to go and announce that to true, devout Muslims. Let me know how that goes. 
So what? You wouldn’t be silly enough to hold a public Qur’an-burning and advertise when and where you’re going to do it, are you? I suppose you could plead innocence on grounds that the Qur’an you want to burn was only an English translation, but somehow I think true, devout Muslims would still be able to figure out that you’re going above and beyond the call of duty in order to insult them, don’t you?
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As far as I know
They must believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior
Just wondering, how could they have taken stories from the Bible if they were illiterate? Muhammad for instance, couldn’t read, so how could he open up a Bible and copy stories? Unless he was told them by word of mouth.
That is how most illiterate people learn. His scribes memorized the Quran before writing it down. It was an oral society.
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I don’t really care to be honest. The substance and information about Jesus doesn’t change if at all. People disagreeing with me doesn’t bother me and I don’t take it personal. As I said, I don’t think an exact canon is possible. It is adequate enough. I’ll happily read GThomas or other early non-canonical works and glean insight from them as well.
I disagree with Catholics and Protestants on tons of issues. This is not one of the ones I will lose any sleep or care to take up arms over.
Vinnie
I don’t think such a list for “Christian” is possible or fruitful. That is what I was getting at. I don’t know much about Muslims but I expect there is a lot of diversity there as well and on what a “true” Muslim does and does not believe. I am skeptical of what you write on that account.
Vinnie
I don’t expect there to be as much diversity with Muslims as there is with Christians, but it is significant nonetheless.
If you are interested, this is an excellent fair handed introduction to the history of Islam:
Islamic History: A Very Short Introduction
I wound up on a Islamic mailing list when I ordered some Arabic flash cards when my daughter was taking Arabic classes, and it was fascinating to see the catalog of books from their publisher which was almost identical in content and format with the catalog sent out by the then Christian Family Bookstore, with the exception of naming Allah rather than God and Jesus. Same topics, similar stories.
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Not surprised. The publishers probably shared investors.
BFD. Your skepticism “has no legs”.
Obviously not. And here I was, thinkin’ to myself that I’m slightly familar with Muslim profiling.
This may be a really difficult idea for you to wrap your head around, but my stereotype of “true, devout Muslims” is not about what you think or believe; it’s a matter of recognizing that the Muslim version of Sola Scriptura is more extreme than the Christian version.
With no expectation of success, I’m gonna try nudging you “toward the light.”
Muslim “Sola Scriptura” assumes and presupposes that:
- The Study Qur’an edited by Seyyed Hossein Nasr.
- "The Quran is for Muslims the verbatim Word of God, revealed during the twenty-three-year period of the prophetic mission of the Prophet Muhammad through the agency of the Archangel Gabriel (Jibrīl or Jabraʾīl). The meaning, the language, and every word and letter in the Quran, its sound when recited, and its text written upon various physical surfaces are all considered sacred. The Quran was an oral revelation in Arabic first heard by the Prophet and later written
down in the Arabic alphabet in a book consisting of 114 sūrahs (chapters) and over 6,200 verses (āyāt), arranged according to an order that was also revealed. Considered the
Book (al-Kitāb) by all Muslims, it has many names, such as al-Furqān (“the Criterion”) and al-Hudā (“the Guide”), but its most commonly used name is al-Qurʾān, which means ‘the
Recitation.’ " - “Known in English as the Quran (also Koran), it is the central theophany of Islam and the basic source and root of all that is authentically Islamic, from metaphysics, angelology, and
cosmology to law and ethics, from the various arts and sciences to social structures, economics, and even political thought.”
- "The Quran is for Muslims the verbatim Word of God, revealed during the twenty-three-year period of the prophetic mission of the Prophet Muhammad through the agency of the Archangel Gabriel (Jibrīl or Jabraʾīl). The meaning, the language, and every word and letter in the Quran, its sound when recited, and its text written upon various physical surfaces are all considered sacred. The Quran was an oral revelation in Arabic first heard by the Prophet and later written
- Qurʻan Translations
- Translations of the Qurʻan are considered interpretations of the scripture of Islam in languages other than Arabic.
- Islamic theology: “Because Muslims revere the Qurʻan as miraculous and inimitable, they argue that the Qurʻanic text should not be isolated from its true language or written form, at least not without keeping the Arabic text with it.”
- “According to Islamic theology, the Qurʻan is a revelation, very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in Quranic Arabic. Translations into other languages are necessarily the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original. Since these translations necessarily subtly change the meaning, they are often called “interpretations” or “translation[s] of the meanings” (with “meanings” being ambiguous between the meanings of the various passages and the multiple possible meanings with which each word taken in isolation can be associated, and with the latter connotation amounting to an acknowledgement that the so-called translation is but one possible interpretation and is not claimed to be the full equivalent of the original).”
- “Diversity”? So what? There’s “diversity” among “Christian fundamentalists”, too; but apparently not enough to discourage you from being “reminded” by something I said of Christian fundamentalists. That you “don’t think such a list for “Christian” is possible or fruitful” is itself irrelevant and pointless. If you don’t think so, go and ask a YEC-er what the “marks of a true, devout Christian are”.
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- It is commonly believed, even among Muslims, that Muhammad was illiterate. Why would that be important … to Muslims? Because it contributes to/promotes/facilitates the belief that the Qur’an must be Allah’s revelation (through the arcangel Gabriel) to Muhammad directly because Muhammad couldn’t read, and no other Arab of the time tried to take credit for writing the Qur’an.
- “They” (i.e. Muslims) didn’t “take stories from the Bible”.
- The accepted, official version of Muhammad’s life says Allah told Muhammad the stories. However, Muslim biographers tell us that Muhammad married a widow, Khadijah, who was older than him who had hired him to work for her: as an import/export trader “by camel”. His wife had a cousin, Waraqah ibn Nawfal ibn Asad ibn Abd-al-Uzza ibn Qusayyurashi. Waraqah was a Christian. In fact, he is said to have been a Nestorian, (i.e. a Christian, but a member of a heretical sect. Nestorian Scripture included the stories that were later incorporated into the Qur’an.
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Didn’t I just say, “I don’t think mishandling a Qur’an, whether or not in Arabic, would go over big with any Muslim.” ???
Some years there was a kookbabble Islamophobic preacher who kept threatening to burn a Qur’an. Everybody asked him not to do it. He went through with it. But Saint Paul, our greatest missionary, never tried to damage the statue he saw that was dedicated to the “unknown god.” And he never threw a hissy fit about it. Instead, he used it to seek common ground with the pagan Greeks and bring the Gospel to them.
And many stories in the Bible were first passed down orally.
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You did; but I thought you may have forgotten since you don’t seem to have grasped the significance of the difference between a Qur’an written or recited in Arabic and a Qur’an translated into another language.
What is “Nestorian Scripture”? Nestorius’s only problem as far as I know was with calling Mary the Mother of God (Theotokos) or God-bearer.
What you initially said about translations is largely correct; a perfect translation is said to be impossible, and the translation is but a reflection of the real deal. It would never get a Muslim equivalent of an imprimatur, if such a thing existed. And yet translations of the Qur’an abound.
The thinking is similar in a way to “King James Onlyism,” where the KJ Translation is regarded almost as an original Bible and all other translations are faulty.
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I suspect Muslims would say that translations into other languages are “paraphrases” to convey their status.
Also there is a great deal of diversity within Islam especially when you look at the Shīʿa side (which includes both the state Islam of Iran, ‘Twelver’, as well as the Nizari Ismāʿīli led by the Aga Khan [and my nearest mosque is Dawoodi Bohra, yet another group]).
I hate when people burn books of any kind wether they agree or disagree with its content, i remember seeing an old video of an atheist burning the book of Mormon and qnd presumably a bible then urinating on what remained of the two. I get being angry with a group of people but book burning is not gonna resolve any issues one has.
P.s. sorry for the rant.
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You would be reasonably correct.
- Surah 43:3 & 4 says, in English Translation: “By the clear Book, truly We have made it an Arabic Quran, that haply you may understand, and truly it is with Us in the Mother of the Book, sublime indeed, wise.”
- Commentary: “The Quran is described as a clear Book, clear in both wording and meaning. This appellation is understood to allude to its being sent down by God rather than composed by human beings. It is also said that all things in Heaven and on earth are recorded in a clear Book. Clear renders mubīn, which is in the form of an active participle and could thus be understood to mean that it makes clear or clarifies, implying that the Quran makes the path of guidance clear from the path of misguidance and truth from error and that it clarifies what is needed in order to follow religion properly. … That God has revealed an Arabic Quran in a clear, Arabic tongue; indicates that it should be clear to the Arabs, who then have no excuse for rejecting it; …
Mother of the Book is interpreted by most as a reference to the Preserved Tablet, which is said to be the source of all revealed scripture, and interpreted by some as a reference to the Quran itself. Sublime indeed, wise refers to the Quran or to the Mother of the Book. Sublime renders ʿalī, which indicates that it is transcendent and thus beyond the possibility of any corruption or falsification. Some say that when read as modifying Quran, ʿalī means that the Quran transcends all other revealed books, because it is a miracle that will remain for all time.” [Source: The Study Qur’an, ed. by Seyyed Hossein Nasr.] - " Since these translations necessarily subtly change the meaning, they are often called “interpretations” or “translation[s] of the meanings” (with “meanings” being ambiguous between the meanings of the various passages and the multiple possible meanings with which each word taken in isolation can be associated, and with the latter connotation amounting to an acknowledgement that the so-called translation is but one possible interpretation and is not claimed to be the full equivalent of the original)." [Source: Qur’an Translations.]