Has Francis Collins, an evangelical, and his Organization Biologos Influenced the Southern Baptist Position on Evolution?

You remind me of Merton’s book, No Man Is an Island. It’s great.

Anyway, corporate sin is a real thing that I acknowledge, but the notion of one individual’s choice to sin corrupting human nature itself is a bridge too far for me. In your example, one person’s bad decision was costly, but it didn’t affect anyone else’s ability to make decisions.

By “corporate sin,” I mean a group of people being judged by God for a collective evil. In scripture it’s usually Israel as a whole, but just as often it’s other nations or tribes.

So here’s a thought experiment: an ancient group of sapiens makes a language breakthrough that allows them to think of everything in a new way. There are trade networks extending 300 km in every direction from them, and they share this breakthrough with neighboring groups that they are in communication with on a regular basis. Those people pass it along to groups they communicate with, and in short order it’s been shared with every sapiens group in Africa.

But this new way of thinking was a double-edged sword. It allowed abstract ideas such as “love” to be expressed, but it also introduced the concepts of good and evil. Over the years, these early humans did what we all do when we reach moral maturity, which is to continue to choose evil even when we finally see it for what it is. We rationalize our way out of it. When early humans as a whole took this path, with the exception of the children in their midst, God withdrew from the scene and “gave them over to their desires,” to borrow from Paul.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. haha

Yes, that helps. I’ve heard some people claim that God had to verbally speak a command to A&E. I don’t think that’s correct. I would argue that God’s purpose, telos, in human evolution was twofold: to make a creature capable not just of love/relationship with God, but also of love/relationship with its fellow creatures. Perhaps we achieved the latter and short-circuited the former?

It’s a tough question. I don’t take the Garden story literally, but the overarching narrative is one of humanity being in the divine presence and then being barred from that presence. What that presence entailed for early humanity can’t be known for certain, as you said, but I don’t think it necessarily required “revelation.” I don’t know about you, but I’ve never heard God’s voice or seen God’s face, but I’ve experienced God’s presence. I believe God was “present” with early humanity every step along the way until we went too far and chose a different path, which is when God “gave us over” to what we wanted.

Yes, the first sapiens is from Morocco 300,000 years ago. It has the elongated braincase of all previous hominins. The genetic evidence from 300 kya-100 kya is extensive mixing of sapiens groups across Africa. The first “globular” sapiens braincase appears around 100 kya, as do the symbolic finds in Blombos Cave in S. Africa. It’s interesting that group in S. Africa may have been genetically isolated for 100,000 years, but they were already in the category of “modern humans” by then. They already had globular brains, modern language and symbolic reference. They were on the same track as everyone else.

Another tough question. Erectus was the first hominin with the basic human “body plan,” though they were smaller in stature than us. They also were capable of speech, though they couldn’t make the whole range of vowel sounds. God’s blessing in Genesis 1 was to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Erectus was the first hominin to venture out of Africa. They made it as far as Eurasia and Southeast Asia, where they had to have the brainpower to cross bodies of water on boats. Erectus survived on Java until about 115,000 years ago.

The descendants of erectus in Africa and Eurasia are Heidelbergensis (in Europe and Africa), Neanderthal and Denisovan. William Lane Craig thinks a historical Adam & Eve began with Heidelbergensis 650,000 years ago. (Newsflash: He’s wrong.) Neanderthal and Denisovan mated in Siberia, and we mated with Neanderthal and Denisovan pretty much every time we ran across them. All of the offspring were fertile and contributed to the human genome. In a scientific sense, if not in every other sense, we were one species.

The only mistake I regret in my previous writing on the subject is positing a population bottleneck that coincided with the explosion of the Toba supervolcano around 75,000 years ago. Toba is a fact, but its worldwide climate effects have been called into question recently.

A population bottleneck isn’t necessary. There was constant geneflow and cultural exchange between H. sapiens populations in Africa for 200,000 years prior to the Out of Africa expansion. The “founder effect” basically reflects the fact that resources began to be overexploited in people’s home region, so a group of youngsters set out to establish new territory. Expand that concept across the globe, and you have a situation where the earliest group (in Africa) is most genetically diverse, and the farther away you get, the less genetically diverse are the populations. That’s essentially the genetic evidence for the Out of Africa event.

It’s late and I’ll have to come back to the other comments. Good thoughts.

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Not thinking the entire story is literally true is different than thinking Adam and Eve were not real people. Can you cite some church fathers who explicitly denied Adam and Eve were real people?

And my goodness, I am way behind in this thread.

Vinnie

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One approach is to start from what is common and proceed from that point forward. In cooperation, it is often enough to focus on what is common and describe what and why I belive if asked.

In debates, the different viewpoints are told and justified but that does not mean that there is a need to be hostile towards people with other kind of opinions. Ecumenical work has shown that cooperation works best when people know what they believe and why, and we let the others keep their interpretations and worldviews. Again, we can tell what and why we believe if asked but without an oppressive demand that everybody must believe as I do.

As I have read about worldviews, I have started to view the worldviews as a bush with multiple trunks.
Worldviews can be divided to different trunks based on the key ontological presuppositions that form the basement of our worldview. For example, if the presupposition is that there is a Creator, God, vs. there is no God, that affects everything else in our worldview.

The presuppositions of Christianity sets all Christians on the same trunk. However, less central differences in presuppositions divide the Christians to separate branches, which are split to smaller twigs based on minor differences. We all have our individual worldviews that could be pictured as leaves on some twig.

It is easier to find something common with those that are situated within the same twig of branch but we have shared points even if we are situated on different trunks. We are all humans that experience the realities of this world. We may interpret the realities in a different way but that does not take away the mutual humanity and experiences.

For some reason, the most fierce quarrels are often with people situated within the same trunk but on different branches. Maybe those on different trunks are so far away that they are not forming a threat to my worldview. Those on different branches of the same trunk can threaten the stability of my worldview much more. That may be the reason why Sunni and Shia (Muslims) often fight more intensely than they fight with non-Muslims, or why the branching of the church during the Reformation lifted up so intensive feelings, even killing of those that did not agree with us.

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I think this will bother me for a long time, but such is journey of faith and discovery. What I mean by this, is that it’s much easier to take a seemingly literal story (from Scripture) and make it a “myth” or “polemic” or somewhat controversially to me “propaganda” and still for it to be rich in theological truth. (Yes I do understand the absolute necessity of learning genre of the different Bibblical stories). I firmly believe that A&E hold rich theological truth for how we understand humanity and our relationship to the divine. But there’s something nagging, probably that modernist mindset, that if it’s not literally true, we are just coming up with creative ways to give these outdated stories meaning so we can illogically prop our belief in a God. You see that with more fundamentalist forms of Christianity for example, needing every step of the Biblical story of Israel to be 100% literally, factually true so that we have a nice neat path from Abraham to Jesus. I’ve left that YEC, literal camp a while ago, but I can’t say I’m fully comfortable in TE still.

I was not meaning to imply that I needed the A&E to be entirely about facts; I was trying to express that within the humanity of history, it would seem illogical for God not to reveal to us His presence or another way. I absolutely hold that A&E hold deep theological truths and metaphysical claims about humanity without needing it to be literal. But for me if there was any hope that God is actually real, I do see a need for some sort of revelation to humans or humans gaining an awareness of the Divine.

I totally get this despite having some reservations. Mostly because if there’s such a discontinuity for how we understand how humanity came to be and whether or not we’re “fallen” has huge implications on what Jesus was trying to do. That’s where I see the most impact from ToE in our faith: human origins and why the world is that it is. It’s still hard to reconcile when the Bible sometimes paints a much different picture. For example, so much of human history and Christian theology, one of the biggest baddies is Death. To introduce that animal death and human death is different or that millions of years of animal “suffering” has occurred isn’t immediately continuous with the historic Christian narrative (specifically that death and suffering came into this world because of the fall). People do struggle with how creation could be considered “very good” with the known history of this planet. While I don’t think it’s not impossible to overcome, to simply overlook those who struggle with it and say everything makes sense in light of the cross seems difficult for me to see immediately. The cross only begins to make sense with how we even got to the cross in human history. And that means that the story of human origins and the entire story of Israel is CRITICAL to that understanding.

This one is difficult because some solutions for the problem of “divine hiddenness” could rely on the fact that God was once way more clearly present and available to early humans but after the “Fall” our eyes were darkened. This however still gives some pause to the story of Israel and their deep connection to the actual presence of the Divine. But you could argue their intimacy with that presence served due to their vocation as God’s priests so to say ( which they failed miserably). Thus you could argue that the first contact was more direct because depending on how you want to read the story, if there is a vocation given to humanity, how would we know what that is? A literal A&E technically get one and there’s a second non-literal layer baked into the story of them being God’s representative too (which could pose other problems).

Yeah this seems like the strongest evidence that were speaking on the same species, though I’ve read that scientists know that no Neaderthal DNA is present in our modern mtDNA, which that any offspring comes from a human female, male Neanderthal couple. And that kinda stinks of interspecies hybrids where some variations of the original couple give fertile offspring and others don’t (I recognize the jury is still out on this, and it seems that the length of time they were interbreeding with Neanderthals suggest something other than interspecies interactions.We might just havent found the ones who did have any contribution. )

Overall I do think this would solve any problems with the spread and transmission of a new “fallen” humanity regardless. I think it’s just as plausible as different hominid and modern homo sapiens developed the capacity for interactions with the Divine, I don’t see any reason why their “Fall” could have happened at a different time than other groups. With this new understanding of a “fallen” state, I’d feel this would be the talk of the town on these ancient trade networks. Even multiple groups independently developing spiritual practices far apart from their other could be speak of a greater truth than everyone together developing “religious thought” at one specific place in history (Though entirely possible that it actually did start in one place and the idea spread around through the trade networks too.)

-Liam

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I respect that.

In order to ‘re-calibrate’ our modern mindset in this regard, I think considering Jesus’ parables is useful. I’ll presume that you join the vast majority of all Christians (including even conservative and fundamentalist ones) who have no trouble accepting that Jesus’ parables are stories that need not have literally happened. (There are exceptions to this - I knew one - and she was horrified that I might even suggest that any of Jesus parables was not a literal historical event.) But if you’re not that extreme, then of course you would agree that Jesus’ parables are important and teach very important things. Which means that Jesus (and Paul or any other Rabbi of that time) has no trouble thinking that symbolic or metaphorical narratives are still important and useful without needing to be referring to actual events. So the EC (and most other scholars) are just taking after Jesus and Paul in these things while YECs when they accept the modernist mindset instead are departing from how Jesus and Paul thought and taught. Some might object that Jesus (or the gospel narrator) explicitly labeled parables as such. And there is some of that too. But not always - not even from the gospel writers. I don’t remember any of them stressing that Jesus prefaced all his stories with “now remember folks - the following is only a story and didn’t really happen!” No - it just seemed to be an accepted part of teaching back then that stories were useful things to communicate truth. The evidence that Jesus (or Paul) would have shared in any of these modernist priorities that YECs have added into their own hermeneutic is lacking to say the least!

So … you’re just following in the reading/teaching habits we see recorded about Christ. Hope that helps.

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There were some in Alexandria who regarded them more as types, though had no issues with those regarding them as historical. Neo-Platonism was probably involved.

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I see how it can seem that way, but it’s just a matter of treating the Genesis text the same as any other ANE text, reading it in the cultural context. Indeed to some in the ANE, if deity told a story, that was as ‘real’ as something they’d seen with their own eyes.

I don’t worry about it: TE does not go against the text, and I leave it at that.

Of course we’re fallen, the only question is how to understand that. One need only look around at people to realize that we are all broken, failing to live up even to our own standards let alone to higher ideals!

And on the flip side is the question of how “You shall surely die” could even have meaning if they weren’t familiar with animal death.
I think the distinction is that they had a higher status (or whatever) than animals and knew it, so the warning was that they could end up no different than the animals, snuffed out and gone. Just as Yahweh told the gods that they would die like men, the warning to Adam and Eve was that they would die like animals – a warning that didn’t require the last two words because that was the only form of death they knew.

I’d say that at the Cross it becomes evident that suffering can be “very good”!

I like the way the second-Temple Jews summed it up: in Eden, a rebel “shining one” (i.e. the nachash, the serpent) tricked humanity and we stumbled; in Genesis 6 another set of heavenly beings screwed around with humanity and opened a floodgate of wickedness (to which God responded with a flood of chaos/water); then at Babel another such rebellion led humans astray yet again . . . and Messiah’s task is to fix all three.
Looking at it apart from those rebel elohim/*nachashim" warps the picture; include those rebellious heavenly beings and it becomes evident that we’re not really the main players – we’re the victims being argued over, targets for destruction by spiritual agents determined for Yahweh to not get to enjoy having material creatures for His image. We are broken, but it is not entirely our doing; we were led astray by agents whose job it was to lead us, just towards Yahweh and not against Him. From that perspective, the Incarnation was a subtle rescue operation pulled off right under the eyes of Yahweh’s foes (not opponents, a term that implies some sort of equality).

Or our eyes were protected! Given the broken connection due to the Fall, danger from seeing the divine glory is not an unreasonable result: it wasn’t that we weren’t permitted to see but that we were protected from the result that seeing would bring.

We have this penchant for regarding things we see as bad as being God’s fault (just like the first two!). Through Jesus it becomes evident that God is on our side, and that should change how we see all those old ideas. God has never been an enemy we needed rescuing from, He’s been fighting in our favor all along (within the constraints of how he set things up).

The “nice neat path” for a modernist probably looks quite different than what someone living two millennia ago was willing to walk down. In the past, they could accept that the people literally existed without insisting on a strict chain of parent–child genetic relationships between the first couple and every other true human.

It’s like a modernist insisting that going to heaven means going into orbit around Earth. After all, they can point to all sorts of ancient readers of Scripture who believed heaven was above the clouds, so obviously if you went into orbit you were in heaven. They’d be taking a common belief and viewing it through a modern scientific worldview.

Similarly, a modernist can insist that Adam was the first human and humans are only those people who biologically descend from him. And they can point to all sorts of ancient readers who believed Adam was literally the first man. But again, they’re tying a common belief to a modern scientific worldview.

When early Christians interpreted the Eden account, even those who took the trees and the serpent and God’s actions symbolically tended to think Adam and Eve were literal individuals. The reason is that those other points didn’t fit their science/philosophy while a literal first couple did. God couldn’t literally mold dirt into shapes and breathe into it or literally plant a garden because that was too anthropomorphic to be consistent with their concept of God. And literally eating a certain fruit couldn’t give immortality or knowledge of good and evil because, well, that’s ridiculous. But the human race starting with one man who was made into a couple? That dovetailed nicely with Plato’s forms and all its entailments. That they could work with.

The early consensus on taking Adam and Eve literally was largely because that part of the story fit their science. It would be like, today, many Christians insisting that when the Bible says God “stretched out the heavens,” that’s literally true, since we all know how the universe has expanded since its beginning. But things like “spreads out the earth” (Isa. 44:24) – that’s just poetry. It’s natural to take what fits our scientific mindset literally while being more flexible in how to read conflicting images.

So the problem today isn’t so much that some Christians are trying to fit Genesis to modern science. The problem is that traditional readings of Genesis already selected what must be literal based on ancient science, and now, in our day, those conclusions put Genesis in conflict with our science. The parts of the story that resonate or conflict with common sense have changed.

This is why I’m comfortable making the first couple representative of an early population, and I have no problem with others who see them as representatives in the middle of the human story that God covenanted with. Both of these establish a historical basis for the story, though neither establishes an absolute genetic link from them to every other human. I think there’s a much more direct prophetic link: their story shows us ourselves. That’s how I see everyone connected to the first couple, not genetics.

Through allowing both historical and prophetic dimensions to the same story, the historical doesn’t need to do it all. The historical shows that, at some level of abstraction, this is actually how God dealt with people. The prophetic shows that humans are just as the story says we are. In this way, physical ancestry isn’t needed to preserve our real connection to Adam and Eve. It’s the same way I imagine someone like Rahab could, each Passover, find herself in the exodus story of Israel.

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Excellent point!

Bravo.

The term “the Fall” took 300 years to be coined by a Greek theologian. His name escapes me.

The following probably needs its own thread, but …

One of the striking features of both the Hebrew Bible and later Jewish literature is the sheer density of concepts, terms, and classifications surrounding purity, impurity, contamination, and purification. These categories are not marginal curiosities. They form a major structuring principle of Israelite religion from the Torah through the Second Temple period and into the Mishnah and Talmuds.

Modern scholarship increasingly emphasizes that ancient Judaism possessed one of the most intricately articulated purity systems in the ancient world—comparable in complexity only to some strands of Hindu law and Zoroastrian death/impurity codes. The Jewish system is unusually technical, deeply theological, and profoundly tied to the presence of God, the sanctity of the land, and the moral and spiritual state of the community.

This raises an important question for Christians:

How did this purity universe shape early Christian ideas of sin, defilement, human nature, and redemption?

When we look closely at the New Testament, especially Paul’s writings, we find that early Christians consistently describe sin using purity language—as stain, defilement, uncleanness, corruption, impurity, cleansing, washing, and sanctification. Even the canonical story of the Fall in Genesis takes on new depth when viewed through Jewish categories of contamination and purification, especially as later rabbinic interpretations (such as the concept of zohamāh) describe the serpent’s act as introducing a kind of primordial moral impurity into human nature.

To help ground this discussion, I’ve assembled the following appendix-style table of key Hebrew terms used across the biblical, Second Temple, and rabbinic periods. It illustrates the scope, structure, and conceptual richness of the Jewish purity system that forms the background of both Judaism and Christianity.


Appendix: Selected Hebrew Terms for Purity, Impurity, Contamination, and Purification

# Hebrew Transliteration Basic Gloss Main Category Conceptual Role
1 טָהוֹר ṭāhôr pure, clean Purity (state) Baseline state of fitness for approaching the holy.
2 טָמֵא ṭāmēʾ impure, unclean Impurity (state) Opposite of ṭāhôr; state of unfitness.
3 טֻמְאָה ṭum’āh impurity Impurity (system) Abstract, system-level impurity category.
4 טָהֳרָה ṭahărāh purification Purification State/process of becoming clean.
5 קֹדֶשׁ qōdesh holiness Holiness Target sphere pure persons/things may approach.
6 נִדָּה niddāh menstrual impurity Specific impurity Impurity of menstruation; exclusion.
7 זָב / זָבָה zāv / zāvāh genital discharge Specific impurity Severe discharge impurity (Lev 15).
8 טֻמְאַת מֵת ṭum’at mēt corpse impurity Specific impurity Most severe impurity; requires red heifer ritual.
9 טֻמְאַת מִדְרָס ṭum’at midrās pressure impurity Technical impurity Impurity from objects sat/lay upon by a zav.
10 שֶׁרֶץ šeretz creeping thing Specific impurity Contact with carcass of certain animals.
11 טִמֵּא timmēʾ to defile Contamination (verb) Acts that make persons/objects impure.
12 נִטְמָא nitmāʾ to become impure Contamination (verb) Transition into impurity state.
13 טֻמְאַת מִקְדָּשׁ ṭum’at miqdāsh sanctuary defilement Sanctuary Impurity accumulated in sacred space.
14 טֻמְאַת הָאָרֶץ ṭum’at hāʾāreṣ land defilement Land Moral impurity “pollutes” the land (Lev 18–20).
15 זֹהֲמָה zohamāh filth, contamination Moral contamination Rabbinic term for serpent-induced moral impurity.
16 עָוֹן ʿāvon iniquity, guilt-burden Transmissible guilt Sin as a weight carried/transmitted to others.
17 רוּחַ טֻמְאָה rûaḥ tum’āh spirit of impurity Spiritual impurity Personified/force-like impurity.
18 כִּפֶּר / כַּפָּרָה kipper / kappārāh atone / atonement Purification Mechanism removing impurity and guilt.
19 רָחַץ / כִּבֵּס rāḥaṣ / kibbēs wash body / wash garments Purification Acts required in many purifying rites.
20 טָבַל / טְבִילָה ṭāval / tevīlāh immerse / immersion Purification Water-immersion purification; connected to mikveh.
21 מִקְוֶה mikveh ritual bath Purification Locus of purification by immersion.
22 הַזָּאָה hazzāʾāh sprinkling Purification Sprinkling of blood/water for purification.
23 מֵי חַטָּאת mê ḥaṭṭāʾt waters of purification Purification Red heifer water for corpse impurity (Num 19).
24 חֵרֶם ḥērem ban, devotion Purging Removal/destruction of what defiles.

Does early Christian teaching about inherited corruption (or “Original Sin”) align more closely with zohamāh or with ʿāvon—or both?

Is modern Christianity missing something by treating sin mainly as legal guilt rather than as a kind of impurity needing purification?

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I appreciate your attempt to stick with what you take Genesis to say, but some of it is NOT what Genesis says. Nowhere does it say Adam & Eve are the first humans. That, and a number of other significant mistakes are the proposals of Augustine, not scripture. If you want a short exposition of Genesis 1 - 7 from the Hebrew text and an old rabbinical tradition, let me know:

roy.a.clouser@gmail.com

You’re probably thinking of St. Augustine.

No, Augustine was a Latin writer from the West. He’s probably thinking of Methodius:

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Yes, indeed. I meant Methodius… who preceded Augustine in rejecting the idea that flesh and matter were inherently flawed:

The term “the Fall” (or “the fall of man”) was first explicitly used to describe the disobedience of Adam and Eve by the Greek church father Methodius of Olympus. This occurred in the late third or early fourth century (he died around 311 AD). ….Most of his writings only survive in fragments in Greek. A significant portion of his works, including the treatise On Free Will (where he likely discussed the effects of Adam’s sin), are preserved in complete form only through Old Church Slavonic translations.

Regarding what he actually said, the term “the Fall” in English is a translation and conceptual term applied to his writings. Methodius did not use a single, specific, technical term equivalent to the later Latin peccatum originale (original sin) developed by Augustine. Instead, he used language that described the consequences of Adam’s actions.

Key points on what he said:

  • The term used According to some scholars (such as John Toews), Methodius used the Latin word Lapsus to describe the “fall”. However, it is important to note this might be a reference to a Latin translation of his Greek work. The Greek word for “fall” is generally ptoma (πτῶμα), but sources are not explicit on the exact Greek term he used.

  • The effect of Adam’s sin He argued against Gnostic ideas that evil was inherent in matter, insisting that man was made with free will (autexousion). He explained that evil arises from the misuse of this freedom, specifically from disobedience.

  • The consequence He focused on the effects of this disobedience on human nature, emphasizing that Christ’s atonement was a restoration of the perfect freedom and equilibrium that humanity possessed before Adam’s sin.

In essence, Methodius described the event as a catastrophic act of disobedience that compromised human freedom and led to mortality, a “descent” from an immortal state, which laid the groundwork for the later concept of “the Fall”.

[End of Google AI]

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Augustine popularized it in the West; in the East I know Clement of Alexandria used the verb, saying “men fell”, but I can’t think of anyone who used it as a noun, though the concept was discussed frequently. From my memory of my readings, references to being cast out of the garden and losing something were far more common, though again I don’t recall any term being given specific significance.

Yes! – that name rings the right bell.

Probably, since Paul uses purity language abundantly, and for that matter so does Jesus.
It’s worth noting, though, that purity in the OT is in regards to ordinary events that really can’t be avoided, such as handling a corpse, not to what Christians conceive of as “sin”. Not even Temple rites actually cleansed sin, which is why Jesus made such a big impact with His forgiving sins; He was in action claiming to be greater than the Temple (something He said flat out on one occasion).

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Right? Southern Baptists didn’t even traditionally consider themselves Evangelicals, they are their own special thing.

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Some very good discussion in here that I have read but fell way too far behind to respond to everything.

@Jay313 the soul is required for abstract rational thought in Thomistic philosophy. You can’t have it without it. But we are also tied to the physcal which is necessary for us given the way things are now. Since babies and mentally ill people cannot engage in the fullness of rational thought you suggest God may have made souls at any point. Against this I would say physical nature of modern humans have the potentiality for rational and abstract thought when God creates their souls. I guess I cannot rule out God giving rational souls to rocks or animals that simply would not benefit from them but the idea is just extremely unpalatable. “Which one of you would give your child a scorpion if the child asked for an egg?” Why would rational souls be created for and given to entities that do not even have the potentiality for rational thought? If we have a free and open world, then it makes sense for babies to have souls. They might be murdered before their brains fully develop but the potentiality is there just as the coffee on my desk has the potential to be on my table. Even if it doesn’t actualize that potential it has it. Before the brain was advanced enough, humans didn’t have the potential for abstract thought anymore than I have the potential to walk on air air that my cup of coffee could sprout wings and fly around the room while whistling show tunes. It is simply not a part of my nature. So I would disagree on the same grounds of simplicity you used. It seems irrational to give rational souls to biological organisms that have no use for them. In the fullness of time, whenever that is, be it 6,000 or 6,000,000 years ago, God endowed first human pair with souls because, presumably, the they could use them.

@Mervin_Bitikofer the parable argument seems rather weak. We can all agree narrative has value whether historical or not. But there isn’t an entire stream of tradition that takes the humans in the parables of Jesus literally and the Bible traces ancestors back to Adam a few times. He was understood to be a real figure (though not everyone was a literalist) by virtually every ancient source we have. If Jesus offered a genealogy for the prodigal son’s father, I would take him as a historical individual. We often tell conservatives to respect the genre differences of different Biblical works but when we try to promote a non-literal interpretation of Adam and Eve on the basis of parables being important but non-literal stories, we are not taking our own advice.

Vinnie

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In studying a different topic I came across this and I wanted to throw it into the mix:

Paul as quoted in Acts 17: 24 "The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. 26 From one ancestor[e] he made all peoples to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God[f] and perhaps fumble about for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us.

I’m sure people appeal to this all the time but I can’t remember seeing it too often in discussions on whether Adam was historical or not. Chalk another piece of evidence up in favor of Paul viewing Adam as a real human being – amongst other things.

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