God's use of natural laws & the Western scientific tradition

This has nothing to do with a private of personal definition, it’s a definition common to Christians; Young Earth Creationist, Old Earth Creationist, Evolutionary Creationist. They all self-identify as creationists. I’m an Evolutionary Creationist.

Because I don’t know what it means. I call myself an an Evolutionary Creationist. I know what that means, and so do most people. I have never met anyone who used the term “ID evolutionist”. If that’s what Dembski and Meyer are, it’s nothing like what I am. I think Eddie should call himself an Intelligent Design Creationist.

@Jonathan_Burke

Thank you for your response and the link to the excerpt from Evolution 2nd edition by Douglas J. Furtuyma, Chapter 11. Guess what I found? An interesting philosophical, theological, scientific defense materialistic/atheistic natural selection and evolution. Since you did not agree with this point of view except in as far as you must agree with adaptive natural selection, I really do not know why you chose it, but since I do not agree with this view I will tell you how it is false with the exception of ecological adaptive natural selection.

"His [Darwin’s] alternative to intelligent design was design by the completely mindless process of natural selection, according to which organisms possessing variations that enhance survival or reproduction replace those less suitably endowed, which therefore survive or reproduce in lesser degree. This process cannot have a goal, any more than erosion has the goal of forming canyons, for the future cannot cause material events in the present. Thus the concepts of goals or purposes have no place in biology (or in any other of the natural sciences), except in studies of human behavior. from Evolution by Futuyma, Chapter 11.

First of all while we cannot say that “erosion” has the goal of creating canyons, we can say that a stream has the goal of flowing into the sea. Water flows downhill, right? It is the water flowing downhill until it reaches the sea, which creates erosion that creates a river bed, which creates in some cases canyons. Therefore one can rightly say that the creation of canyons by water erosion is caused by the purposeful action of water guided by the purposeful laws of nature…

Does this mean that water has a mind? No, but it does mean that water flowing downhill is part of a integrated ecological process which makes possible the existence of life on planet earth. Life was not always here. It took billions of years to produce it and the system of streams and erosion is only a small, but crucial part of that process.

Is the ecological design of planet earth real or only the appearance of design, since it is mindless because Nature does not have a mind. Nature does not have a mind, but nature was designed by God Who does have a mind.

We are vary aware that humans can give rational purpose and meaning to the things that they produce. We build a house and we give the meaning and purpose we build into it. We build a car and put into it computers or min-minds which help us to drive it.

If we as humans can so these things, then certainly God could and indeed did build meaning and purpose into the universe and the earth without giving each part of this Creation “minds.” Thus Darwin, Monod Hawking, and Dawkins declare the universe without meaning and purpose, because they refuse to consider the fact that God created it.

The problem is not the mindless nature of the universe, but the “mindless nature of life,” which reduces reality to a series of random events and makes science a lie and a farce.

Second, there is no mention of adaptation in this paragraph. Adaptation is a purposeful action. Life forms adapt in order to survive and flourish. This is the reason that Dawkins and Co. do not say that the natural selection is driven by adaptation. Their view is that natural selection is kinship driven, that is it is selfish, which is the opposite of adaptation. As far as I can see this is the normative understanding of natural selection and is demonstratively false as Popper claimed.

Third, the process of evolution through ecology does have a goal which is to develop life up to and including human beings in a balanced and rational manner. It has done so quite effectively until recently, until humans began to muck our planet and its ecosystem up. If we do not understand this and act responsibly then we will fail and suffer the consequences.

Fourth, to separate humans from the rest of nature is false. It does against the meaning of evolution, which says that humans are a part of nature, which we are, as good theology recognizes. Humans are a part of God’s Creation just like everything else. We are different and unique, but then so is everything else.

To deny the continuity between humans and the rest of Creation is wrong, although Christians in the past have done so. Now it is the non-believers who are doing this on the name of science.

Even though there is much more that could be said this critique hits the high points and enough is enough.

@Jonathan_Burke,

Okay… that seems pretty reasonable. Eddie and I might have been optimistic to think you were paying particular attention to our discussion.

I think Eddie will concur that an “ID Evolutionist” is someone who thinks God participated in the creation of life on Earth, both Micro and Macro Evolution, including descent of Humans from non-human genotypes, without specifying either of the two scenarios:

a) God arranged human evolution through lawful processes of nature, by the perfect configuration of the Cosmos at Creation without any additional special interventions that involved suspending natural law; or

b) God arranged human evolution through lawful processes of nature AND by at least some special interventions that involved suspending natural law.

@Eddie, please feel free to tweak or overhaul this draft!

That should not be surprising. That’s what I expected you to find.

Because it will help you understand natural selection.

No we can’t. A stream has no goal at all.

The action of water is not purposeful, and the laws of nature are not purposeful.

I agree. Hold that thought. Then we can stop talking about nature as if it’s God.

So what?

Life forms do not adapt purposefully. Individuals adapt their behaviours reactively, not purposefully (with the exception of very few higher order species such as humans). Species “adapt” in the form of natural selection; they don’t actually “adapt” so much as they are selected.

This is wrong. Please read more about natural selection. You also need to read the words of Popper to which I linked, because you’re misrepresenting him.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. What is “the process of evolution through ecology”?

I agree.

I see no evidence that non-believers are doing this. Quite the opposite.

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How is that different to an Evolutionary Creationist who rejects Intelligent Design? Where is the “ID” in this “ID Evolutionism”? And what position is occupied with the IDers who reject common descent and reject macroevolution?

@Jonathan_Burke

The “ID” means we think God is involved in Evolution.

An “Evolutionary Creationist” was an alternative, but it didn’t make it clear that “ID”, by itself, is acceptable to BioLogos folks.

I thought “ID” stood for “intelligent design”. If it doesn’t, what does it stand for? “Involve D in evolution”?

That is not what ID means.

ID means something. It is not the same as the generic evolutionary creationist belief that creation has a Designer/Creator. Since when has “ID” been acceptable to “BioLogos folks”? If that were the case, Eddie could retire to the beach knowing his life mission has been completed. :grinning:

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You forgot the part about “and evidence of a Designer can be scientifically demonstrated.” That is a key boundary (as I see it, I’m pretty sure I’ll be corrected for my lack of nuance.) between those who accept common descent within ID and other evolutionary creationists who reject ID.

ID does stand for Intelligent Design.

The intersection of ID and Evolution = BioLogos.

@Christy, you say no?

No.

The official BioLogos summary is here:

I see.

I don’t get that implication and don’t think that sentence is character assassination at all, just expressing strong disagreement. But duly noted that you take it differently. Semantics a is fascinating subject; everyone should take a class and then we could all discuss presupposition failure and entailments and pragmatic implicatures at length (in separate threads of course) and it would be such fun.

@Jonathan_Burke

Thank you for your response.

You are making the mistake of saying one must have a mind to have a purpose. However Jacques Monod who originated this argument in his influential book, Chance and Necessity, clearly says that this is not true. For instance, the purpose of a baseball is to hit a baseball, although it can be used to hit many other things.

The baseball bat does not have a mind, but it has a purpose which its creators gave to it. Same with the stream. To say that the stream does not have a purpose, we would have to ask, what if the stream did not exist. If it had no purpose, that would create no problem, but if the water could not flow down the hill, there would be a serious problem. If there were no streams, there would be no dry land.

The stream has the purpose of draining its area. This is not an subjective purpose, based on subjective purpose, but an objective purpose based on objective observation. Of
course to admit this, that the earth’s environment is designed with the purpose to create and encourage life would be to affirm a divine plan which non-believers refuse to do.

Jon “Hold that thought. Then we can stop talking about nature as if it’s God.”

No, Nature is not God, but God works through Nature, just as humans work through their creations. Nature cannot be God, because Nature is created. When science tries to claim that Nature is not created, then it is acting as if Nature is God.

Monod says that things created by humans have meaning and purpose instilled in them by their creators. Yet Monod refused to say that the universe and all its aspects has meaning and purpose because he refused to acknowledge its Creator. That is not true. Life has purpose and meaning. Living an empty and worthless life is not rational and stupid.

Popper said that neoDarwinian Natural Selection was not falsifiable because it is based on circular reasoning, because it is. Under great pressure he “recanted” this view, but he did not say that it was a proven theory, but a valid hypothesis which still needs to be proven. Since it has yet to be scientifically verified, neoDarwinian Natural Selection is still not a valid scientific theory. Only since ecology has become an important scientific discipline so we have an alternative explanation for Natural selection which is falsifiable and proven to be true.

Those people who claim that purpose, meaning, and rationality exist only in humanity separate humanity from the rest of creation and make humanity supernatural, that is above nature.

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No, I’m not making that argument. I’m identifying the fallacy of equivocation to which you’re appealing.

That’s not the purpose of the baseball bat, that’s the function for which the maker of the baseball bat made the bat.

There are plenty of places where water cannot flow downhill, and it’s no problem at all. They’re called lakes.

I think you’ll find that the absence of streams is a good guarantee of dry land.

No, that’s just something which happens. If streams have the purpose of draining their area they’re doing a very bad job, unless they’re streams which are only temporary.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

I’m sorry but this is just nonsense.

This is demonstrably untrue. It has been verified many times over.

@Jonathan_Burke

As a scientifically oriented human, do not just repeat this claim, show me where it has been verified!

Roger I don’t believe you’re a scientifically oriented human. You have every appearance of being a theological oriented and motivated human, who has little or no interest in science. Please start here.

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Semantic clarification: the purpose of the baseball bat is to win the ball game?