God's use of natural laws & the Western scientific tradition

[Jonathan_Burke (Jon)]

@Eddie

You are referring, I presume, to the burning of Servetus – who, I believe was the only person burned in Geneva, which was the only state where Calvin had political authority.

Yes. And it doesn’t matter how many other people were doing the same, it still makes Calvin a murderer. In terms of fairly basic Sunday School level Bible knowledge, “Don’t kill people” is approximately lesson 1. Maybe lesson 2 if you were sick your first day. It’s the sort of thing a high level theologian should be expected to know.

@Eddie

Calvin affirmed the Creeds and respected and studied the writings of all the Fathers.

Yeah, and there’s lots of dodgy stuff in those creeds, not to mention in the early fathers. Bit of a worry there. The Apostles’ Creed is good, the Didache is good, and it’s all downhill after that (no I am not arguing as a Catholic, I don’t affirm any creed after the Didache). It would have been better if Calvin had been more into his Bible and less into creeds. Maybe he wouldn’t have ended up a murderer. And let’s not forget the whole Calvinism thing which was named after his theological inventions. And let’s not forget his anti-Semitism; sure, you could argue he wasn’t as bad as Mad Martin, but he wasn’t that much better.

@Eddie

You article tries to show that the conception of “natural laws” as modern science understands it is found in the Bible. You have not shown that.

In your opinion. I note the complete lack of engagement with my article.

@Eddie

I am a scholar this area.

Great, I’d love to read your work. Please list your peer reviewed publications, especially in the historiography of the Western scientific continuum.

@Eddie

Certainly “autonomously” has a Deist feel to it, and the teaching of the Bible is not Deist.

Ah, so the basis of your objection is fear of Deism. Not a good basis for objection. Since when did “autonomously” have a Deist feel to it? Do you feel the same way about “automobile”?

@Eddie

You also have not dealt with the problem that the very concept of “nature” comes to us from the Greeks, not the Bible…

Yeah… no. One Western concept of nature comes to us from the Greeks.

@Eddie

…that the notion of “natural laws” or “laws of nature” indicates a degree of theoretical elaboration that we do not see in the Biblical texts.

An elaboration, no. The notion, yes. That’s where Second Temple Period exegetes found it; Sirach, Jubilees, Enoch, and others.

@Eddie

I don’t see any of these people – e.g., Jonas, Klein – cited in your article.

Vague handwaving while dropping names, typically indicates bluffing. If you think Hans Jonas is relevant, quote him directly. If you think Jacob Klien is relevant, quote him directly.

@Eddie

I also don’t see the classical studies of “the Biblical idea of nature” – such as those of Wheeler Robinson – acknowledged in your article.

For good reason. I don’t have a need for nineteenth century theologians when studying this field, except for historical value.

@Eddie

Who says that God does not work through natural causes to make it rain, etc.?

People who believe the universe is upheld and acts on a moment by moment basis because of God’s personal volition. People who believe it’s wrong to say that it rains because God set up an autonomous condensation/evaporation cycle.

@Eddie

Who says that electrical and magnetic phenomena involve direct intervention by God?

People who believe electricity is the Holy Spirit.

@Eddie

The only place where these people differ from mainstream science concerns origins.

Indeed. They’re happy for God to have arranged everything else so that it runs by itself, but they want to sequester this part of the universe away and say “No, this bit is special, He couldn’t have done that with this bit”.

@Eddie

Well, if you agree with that, then what precisely is your beef with other Christians who think the same thing?

I don’t have one. Behold! A better question is why all those Christians who are happy with the idea of God acting through nature everywhere else, suddenly run scared when the idea is proposed that He also did this in creation.

@Eddie

Where, in your view, were non-natural causes involved in the production of the solar system, of the earth, of the first life, and of the products of evolution, including man?

In the creation of the universe and its laws, and in the special creation of Adam and Eve.

Oh look, I just found this entire conversation is being held elsewhere. So I’ll leave you to that discussion. If you want to comment specifically on anything I wrote in my article, let me know.