God's Sovereign Will(s?)

Thanks for the video, I watched it. I agree with the future contingency part (point 2) but not fully with the EC incompatibility (EC = epistemically causal / settled; point 3). The defence of the EC incompatibility was limited, it did not discuss all options or viewpoints.

If we look at the timeline from one point, we can look to two directions - history and future. Even if we assume that history is the result of the free choices made by free agents, we see a determined past - we do not see open history, we see only one, fixed story until the point where we stand. The fact that we see one, fixed (determinate) story does not remove free will; the fixed trajectory is assumed to be the result of free choices. Similarly, someone looking at the timeline after 3000 years will see our open future as a determinate, fixed story.

The claim that God cannot know the future (foreknowledge) is based on an assumption that God can only watch the timeline from our viewpoint, towards the unknown future. If that assumption is not true, if God can look at the timeline from a point 3000 years from our current point, then God would see our unknown (indeterminate) future as a determinate trajectory. That kind of foreknowledge (watching history) is fully compatible with free will. Otherwise, the fact that we know the history as a determinate trajectory would negate the possibility that free will existed in the history.

This topic is relevant when we think about how we should understand biblical scriptures. If God could not know the future, how should we interpret the assumed early prophecies about the future Messiah (Jesus)?
If even God could not certainly know what happens after thousands of years of indeterminate future, then the scriptures of the past could not tell accurate details about the events that happened after Jesus was born. God can guide the future events so that the history leads towards the wanted endpoint of the great plan of God but the details would be indeterminate. I think that this hypothesis is in conflict with the interpretations made by the NT authors.

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No, we do not see a “determined” past, we see a “settled” past. There is a difference in concepts. History (which was once the future) existed as partly undetermined (contingent). Once choices are made the time slips into the past and those options become “settled”, and known as “the single resulting timeline”

If God is not “in time” then he must experience and know all of reality (all of the single resulting timeline) simultaneously and know all facts (including “contingent future facts”). Which, if you still think this is logical, you seem to have missed Dr. Rhoda’s point. If some future choices are truly unsettled/free, then God cannot (logically) simultaneously know from eternity both that “Bob chose to eat an apple at 7:50 am on 17 May 2025” and “Bob chose to eat an orange at 7:50am on 17 May 2025”. The alternate possibilities are mutually exclusive and cannot both attain, and hence if this event (branch along a decision-tree) can only be settled by an independent agent acting independently of God’s determination (i.e. Libertarian free will), God can’t infallibly “know” the reality/attaining of one of these future options from all eternity, but only when the free agent actually makes the choice (and thus settles the options in the branching timeline). It’s not a matter of God lacking omniscience, it is just the nature of a future that has continent possibilities and so which can only be known (infallibly) as partly open.

This is a common objection that is often brought up and there are several Open theologians who have addressed it. This post is getting a bit long but I’ll just point out that 1) Open Theology still allows God the omnipotence to determine His own actions and so God still has the power to orchestrate events in real time, if He so chooses (and he can know how He will act in the future). So if God decides that he will rescue the world by sending the Messiah to Israel and reveals this plan to Prophets, it would be possible to predict the future Messiah because God is just stating how He has determined to act in the future…
2) If you look at the words of scripture, much of what Jesus is said to “fulfill” is not actually a prediction.
and 3) If a person is in a car with the gas pedal to the floor and racing towards a cliff, at some point before the car goes over the cliff, an outside observer can know that it is inevitable that the car will go over the cliff… So if an omnicient God who knows all past events, all current events, and all the ripple effects of those, it is likely that He is able to “predict” many future outcomes with much higher certainty than humans can. This means that even if God doesn’t choose to control (determine) all events, that he probably has a much better knowledge of future outcomes than we think.

Oh, here’s a page that addresses just some of these concerns. In sum, despite the “demonization” of Open Theology in some circles, I see nothing to threaten orthodox conceptions of God or coherent reading of scripture.

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Great discussion here. Full disclaimer - I have no clue as to how God’s sovereignty neatly resolves with human choice. I have not found any theological or philosophical argument that is compelling or coherent.

My response to Rhoda’s video is that he is very engaging, but he seems to assume that the space-time frame of reference in which a particular choice is happening, is physically universal as well as applying to God. Even within the universe, and apart from divine attributes, this assumption is suspect, as is demonstrated by this space invaders paradox. This 5 minute video explains the basic idea…

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Interesting! You probably have more knowledge in this area than I do (as an ecologist) but from what I’ve read casually, the “equivalence of past, present, and future” moments only applies to the block theory of the universe. And Einstein adopted this particular model because it could make sense of General Relativity. And so, this theory of time is the majority view among modern physicists because they hold to General Relativity (GR). However, I have also read that GR cannot easily incorporate aspects of Quantum theory, and hence physicists also have a niggling feeling that Einstein (and GR) have gotten something wrong, or something incomplete, including Einstein’s formulation of “time”. An hence…what “time” is, or how it functions is still very much a live question within theoretical physics. I confess that solving the nature of time question is far above my paygrade :wink:

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Oh man, this probably deserves another thread called “God and Time”. but anyways, I’ll throw out this interesting tidbit from a theological (scriptural) perspective:

Revelation 1:8 "“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

Here we have God making a direct self-declaration which describes Himself as experiencing (able to distinguish) the present, the past, and the future. In other words, scripture seems to indicate that God does not experience all things as an “eternal present” but as a series of (different) moments.

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Thanks for correcting the terms - I do not know the correct use of words in this context, in philosophy / English language.

The point was that what we see is a settled trajectory (path) through history. We cannot know whether it was ‘settled’ or ‘determined by God without free choices by humans’ because both alternatives might produce an identical trajectory. We only see this one trajectory, not an open cloud of possibilities.

The same is true about our future - it is unknown to us and probably dependent on free choices that we have no way to know now. Yet, it would look like a settled trajectory for anyone reading about history 3000 years in the future. If a human could see our future as a settled trajectory, God could see it even better IF He can watch our future from the viewpoint of the observer living 3000 years in the future. There is no fundamental conflict between this kind of knowledge and free will.

The ‘IF’ is a crucial word because much depends on how God is related to time. That remains an open question until we get a sufficient understanding about time. If time is a property of the created universe [or an illusion], the Creator is not necessarily tied to time in the same sense as we are. Naturally, He understands how we experience time and can accommodate His messages to our understanding but it would not mean that He is bound to the time.

I may have misunderstood something basic about the philosophical arguments but I do not think that the explanation given by Dr. Rhoda was sufficient to exclude the kind of knowledge I explained above. IF God is not tied to our current moment, the philosophical arguments leave a gap for such knowledge one can get by traveling in time.

It is interesting to speculate about this topic, although the speculation remains just speculation until we get more information about the essence of time.

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I should say at the outset thanks for engaging me in this interesting conversation!
Well, what I quoted is your assertion but one that I think Dr. Rhoda shows can not hold, logically. But if you can’t see that in his argument then I guess we just have to leave it there and drop the point for now :wink:

Of course, God being eternal and immortal, even if he experiences time would not be bound to time in the same way we are. However, if he can understand and perceive “a sequence of moments” (i.e. time progression even as it suggests in scripture) it suggests that all events in history are not, in fact, “the eternal now, or universal present” to God, because then there would be no ordering to such “facts”, and hence God could not know that any events were contingent on previous events and which could only be “settled as facts” by the free choice of other actors, which have to have had occurred in a sequence to be meaningful. Ugg. words start to fail me.

I agree we are in the realm of interesting speculation here. Other analytic theologians I’ve read suggest that God might even “be” time, at least in the sense that “time” could be an inherent property of a relational being. In that sense it simply has always existed with God, and is not a creation at all…

Another way of saying that there is a fixed, universal time shared by God and the universe, is that there is a universal simultaneity such as governs Newtonian physics. This concept is a casualty of Einstein’s constant speed of light, unifying space and time, which impacts observation not only of time intervals, but also order of events.

From Tatsu Takeuchi lecture notes at Virginia Tech

All observers are observing the same two events A and B. The spacetime points at which they occur are frame independent. However, the chronological order of the events are frame dependent:

  • In the frame fixed to the ground (x,t), A happens before B.
  • In the frame fixed to the train (x’,t’), A and B happen at the same time.
  • In the frame fixed to the sports car (x’‘,t’'), A happens after B.

This is the unavoidable consequence of the experimental fact that the speed of light is the same for all inertial observers.

As inertial frames are every which way in the universe, and while we can individually only experience one at at time, I would have difficulty extending such a limitation to God. It would be like that hokey Star Trek movie where Kirk encounters the pretender needing a starship to get out of the galactic core.

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So “For I, the Lord, do not change” (Malachi) doesn’t mean “I, the Lord, am Immutable”.

Good distinction!

But not necessarily our variety/axis of time. I read an article once arguing that there are three axes of time just as there are three of space, it’s just that we only experience one of them (called “t” time as opposed to “tau” time and “tet (tayt)” time.

But it is beyond simply physical limitations; it is also the fact that our choices are inextricably caused by our desires, and our desires by our (internal) nature, which is caused by the very arrangement of our brains, etc., a status that we did not ourselves choose. But to @klw 's earlier point also, I respectfully think he is misunderstanding: Calvinism does readily acknowledge the reality that our choices are formed by a nature that we didn’t ourselves decide, but neither does it claim that said factors themselves make us puppets, or that we don’t have a genuine free liberty of will wherein we make real choices that are not determined by the stuff we’re made of.
The thoroughly Calvinist Westminster Confession affirms that “God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.”

Perhaps he is confusing the general theological principle that recognizes the impact our innocent, sinful, or glorified natures have/will have. For instance, Calvinists traditionally understand that in glory, we will literally not be able to sin - not because God is actively constraining our freedom or yanking us on some kind of choke chain every time we would go that direction… but because our nature will have been so cleansed and redeemed that sinning simply will not be in our nature - *but we will then have absolute, unrestrained freedom to do anything else that we wish to do according to that nature. Love, laugh, tell stories, make music, or whatever else we will have the unrestrained freedom to do in eternity.

But we will not be “free” to sin - but not because of some restriction on our will, but because our nature will be such that it will simply have no desire whatsoever to so act. And thus we will be free to do anything else whatsoever.

Careful here, it was trying to argue this very point that pushed me into the Calvinism I embrace today…

Point being, you do know that Paul anticipates this very objection, right? Right after he makes a statement that sounds very Calvinist at face value…

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

…Paul anticipates your very objection…

One of you [ @Mervin_Bitikofer ?] will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

But instead explaining that God didn’t really pre-ordain any of that stuff, and/or agreeing that there is something problematic about being held responsible for something God had pre-planned, or clarifying that he didn’t really mean God had predetermined Pharaoh’s actions, or otherwise clarifying he doesn’t mean all this stuff in the way Calvinists understand it…

No, instead of anything like that, Paul anticipates your very objection, and he doubles down:

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

He anticipates your very objection, about “how can I be held responsible, if God planned pre-ordained some evil choice I made”, and his response is, essentially, “God has every right to do use you for what purposes he chooses, as a potter his pottery. He made you. Deal with it.”

Well, there are two answers I would give… one would be to point out that nearly every author of the Bible doesn’t seem to have an issue with God orchestrating evil for his purposes.

But secondly, unless you’re going to go the “whole hog” and embrace open theism, with a God who really, really wanted to do everything whatsoever in his power to prevent evil from happening, but it just snuck up on him as he just didn’t see it coming, you have to deal with the fact that God knew all these evils would happen, but has chosen to allow each and every one to happen.

Going back to Star Trek… In “City on the Edge of Forever” Captain Kirk happened to have practically omniscient knowledge that Edith would get killed in that accident. He also had the power to prevent said death from happening (or he could easily have allowed Bones to save her - I still remember Bones’ haunting cry, “You deliberately stopped me, Jim! I could have saved her* !”)

Thus, there’s no way around it. In effect, Kirk chose that Edith should die at that particular moment. He could have prevented it, he had the power to prevent it, he could have allowed Bones to prevent it… but he intentionally chose not to intervene (and prevent Bones from intervening). And by choosing not to intervene, then it means that in some very real sense, he chose for Edith to die at that moment. How does this logic not also apply to a God that knows all things including the future, is omniscient and omnipotent, and who “allows” any evil thing to take place… did he not similarly choose - from the foundation of the world - for said evil thing to occur, for some purpose?

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Hi Daniel, I’m somewhat reluctant to engage in a long and heated debate over Calvinism here which I don’t think is a focus of this forum context…so I’ll limit my response (and please take these comments also in a spirit of respectful disagreement, I don’t think these are “gospel issues”) . I’ll just point out that:

  1. Simply stating that Calvinists don’t claim that their theology makes them puppets does not make that statement logically coherent and
  2. Just 2 days ago I actually watched a non-Calvinist theologian on youtube discussing how the Westminster Confession was logically inconsistent because it aligned with Libertarian Free will in the passage you quoted above, but in later articles of the Confession it affirms determinism. That Youtube creator said he got some Calvinists agreeing with him in the comments (i.e., that the Confession was theologically inconsistent) but other responses from Calvinists saying he was wrong–that the passage quoted above actually should NOT be interpreted as giving man freedom but should properly be interpreted was consistent with God’s deterministic control. So, the youtube creator in a follow-up video got one of those Calvinists on his channel to explain how that particular Westminster Confession article should be “properly” interpreted as deterministic…and what ensued was a long and contorted rabbit-hole of definitions and caveats over “freedom”. This had the host (and myself) concluding “same words, different dictionary” and that even various Calvinists apparently couldn’t agree on what the words “natural liberty” or “non-forced” in the confession really meant…

Secondly, the scripture passages you present as “definitive proof” of God’s deterministic control of people’s wills such as “hardening of pharaoh’s heart” and “the potter molding the clay” are interpreted with your Calvinist lenses, but there are other ways. e.g., in the passage, Pharaoh is said initially to harden his own heart, later in the story it mentions that “God hardens”. But it is obvious then, that God is not causing Pharaohs intent against Pharaohs own freedom to do otherwise, but that after some time, Pharaoh reacts to God’s actions in a way that reveals and strengthens the intent that pharaoh already possessed and chose by himself and his own “hardening”.

And the theology surrounding the parable of the potter and the clay. In cultural context, real potters had to “feel out” the type of clay they had to work–assessing the qualities the clay gave him to make a particular type of vessel. The prophet Jeremiah relates how the initial pot “was spoiled” in the potters hand and so the potter had to switch to make it into a different type of vessel. So, this image is precisely not one of the potter unilaterally forcing his will on the clay (or of the potter determining the nature of the clay), but one of the potter being forced to react to the “stubbornness” of the clay to change his intentions for the vessel. This interpretation seems clear because in Jeremiah, the potter analogy transitions to a warning to the nation of Israel that IF the people are stubborn in their disobedience he will destroy them like that pot and make something different than what he had planned (hoped) for them.

In sum, I don’t see any evidence in scripture of God determining (creating or forcing) someone’s will, or making them do something against their own free inclination. In contrast, I see lots of evidence of God giving his people the “live” option to choose “A” versus “B”, and apparently a real flexibility of God to react with blessing or cursing according to whether the people obey God’s will or not.

p.s., I know its cryptic, but I’ll let you on to the secret that I’m actually female

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But Daniel, this is just a strawman of what Open Theists believe.

God, in his infinite intelligence we presume could know each and every potential branching point and and thus each and every potential outcome on a contingent timeline. Knowing the range of all contingent possibilities, God has the infinite mental capacity to plan for each potential scenario (how he will act) just as effectively as if there was only one predetermined scenario. This means that nothing “sneaks up on God” as you phrased it. Rather, God has been fully prepared from the start of creation to react to whatever particular timeline is realized. He has a plan and infinite wisdom to “work together for the good” whatever transpires. Like the master chess player his “winning of the game at the end of time” can not be thwarted by whatever particular moves on the chessboard the other players play.

So it is correct to say that an Open Theist believes God chose a world in which evil had the potential to be actualized by other free-will agents, but it would not be correct to say that God knew that specific evil(s) would definitely be realized when he initially created, far less that he chose and predestined all the evils that would happen. Whatever model of the future one holds to, (whether Calvinist or Open Theist) we are all faced with the longstanding question of “Why does God not intervene and prevent the current evils we see”?

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It is possible that I am currently just unable to grasp a basic assumption of that philosophy and am simply wrong. It is also possible that I have not been stuck into a mind trap that focused logical reasoning may produce.

The logical reasoning binds itself to given assumptions and needs to proceed strictly on that road, step by step. It is a useful method to increase understanding about what something means, where does that thinking lead and what are the inherent weaknesses of that thinking.

The potential trap in such thinking could be compared to a dog that follows the scent trail of a target. The best scent tracking dogs may be so concentrated on following the scent track that they do not utilize all available cues. They act almost like being blind and deaf. Hares and probably some other animals can utilize that by creating false track loops, apparent dead ends and other tricks that may confuse the dog. A less cultured and trained dog does not fall into these traps because it can use all available cues, sight and sounds in addition to the scent track. Such a dog can jump of the scent track when it sees or hears something that looks like the target.

Being less cultured and trained than the professional philosophers is a handicap - but also a potential strength. When the professional philosophers try to strictly follow the track towards the future, a less trained ‘dog’ may look at the question from various viewpoints. It may lead to misunderstandings but sometimes towards a finding that the cultured and trained ‘scent tracking dog’ did not notice.

As I seem to be currently unable to understand (or agree with) all the basic assumptions of that philosophy, I agree that we may need to drop the point for now. Maybe we can return to it when God has given me a bit more understanding :wink:

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That doesn’t work.

It works for Kirk, because he has limited choices, and can only pick two options, neither of which requires him to force any individual to take a particular action.

It doesn’t work for God, if God has a specific plan that requires an individual to take an action.

Did Judas have the option not to betray Jesus? If God selected a timeline in which Judas betrayed Jesus, but there are other timelines possible where he didn’t, then Judas had no choice. Either God chose a timeline where Judas’s character was such that he was a betrayer by nature, or God chose a timeline in which Judas’s circumstances would guarantee he made the decision to betray. Either way, Judas had no choice. If he ever chose not to betray Jesus, God would simply pick a different timeline.

But maybe God’s plan would have worked in anyone betrayed Jesus. IOW, it didn’t have to be Judas. God could have chosen a timeline in which Judas was a model citizen but Levi[1] was a scoundrel only in it for the money.

That might work for Judas. But would it work for Jesus? Would God ever allow a timeline where Jesus avoided crucifixion (or some similar nasty fate)?

[Insert trinity confusion here]


  1. Hmmm. Is this why there are differences between the gospels? Are they describing different potential timelines? ↩︎

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For further entanglement, consider that the timeline includes God’s own actions at various points. That would mean God knows what he did/will do, making his own actions subject to his omniscience, possibly removing his own free will.

And for those who think God picked a timeline which fulfilled his plans: why would he pick one which included him destroying the whole world via Noah’s flood?

We seem to be on the ultimate multi-verse theory with one big catch. God is only involved in one of them. That is a frightening thought. What if we are in one of those that did not fit into God’s plans?

Richard

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And simply asserting that compatibilism is false doesn’t prove it is so!

That is why it is called “compatibilism” because the determinism of God and the free liberty of humans is understood to be “compatible”!

Ah, yes, almost as though the author was suggesting that it was “both/and” and not “either/or”? Kind of like we compatabilists maintain? :wink:

Perhaps because you are interpreting these through your Arminian/Open Theist lenses?

On this, though, we agree. This is the Calvinist position, after all.

Agreed, but yet quite relevant as it has such an impact on the question of whether God could intend the very words of Scripture without making the writers puppets.

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Well, you are essentially asserting that if God chose that timeline, then thus Judas had no choice. But an assertion is not is not a demonstration that it is true. We believers incompatible, ism, simply assert differently.

I honestly can understand why this seems counterintuitive, I believed so myself at one point. but that does not somehow prove that they are incompatible. After all, doesn’t our faith have plenty of things that at first seem counterintuitive and paradoxical, but if God created the world as he did, then there are many things that are compatible in such a complex world that certainly do not seem so from our first glance?

God existing as three persons in one God? Christ being 100% God and 100% man? Perfect love and perfect justice coexisting in God’s character?

On these topics, I am regularly challenged by unbelievers who similarly confidently assert that these two things cannot coexist…. That ifnine is true then the other can’t be.

So going to my crazy hypothetical with Captain Kirk, let’s make it more interesting by imagining that Kirk had a choice between two different timelines: one where John Booth assassinated Lincoln, just as we all know, and another alternate timeline where Booth, at the last minute, just according to his own free choice, had second thoughts about what he was doing, And freely decided of his own free-will to refrain from said assassination.

You’re saying that if Kirk chose the timeline we all know as actual history, then that means that at some point, Booth was transformed into a puppet for that single moment? That in that one moment he had his free will ripped away from him, and then it was magically returned to him a moment later after the assassination was completed?

Rather, it would sure seem to me as if this was actually a both/and. Kirk was looking at an entire timeline where Booth made that free choice, and if he chose that timeline to proceed, then Booth maintained just as much free will as he had before Kirk went back in time and had the choice to alter the timeline. Personally to me, it becomes obvious that the decision for Lincoln to be assassinated in this hypothetical is both the choice of Captain Kirk, and the choice of John Wilkes Booth.

In short, I can see no bona fide contradiction between the two. They seem completely compatible to me.

But then, wouldn’t you then claim that Levi had no free choice if God had in fact chosen that alternate timeline/reality?

(And in that hypothetical timeline, would not Judas have had no free choice about being a model citizen?)

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Ah, perhaps so. But then I was simply stating what I believe to be the logical consequences of said belief.

Are you suggesting that we should allow people to state their positions, and not try to claim they believe things that they explicitly deny, just because we personally happen to believe those things to be logically necessitated by other of their beliefs?

If so, I concede the point, and will be happy to see you likewise affirm that Calvinists do indeed believe that we have real and genuine free will.

I understand the concept of compatibalism but this is exactly the point of disagreement–what constitutes “free”? If God creates people’s wills and natures and desires and then empowers them to act exactly as he has programmed them (i.e., the definition of compatibalism) how is this “free” and not robotics? In contrast, Libertarian Free Will is defined as the freedom to have done otherwise (which includes the freedom to act against God’s will (i.e. sin) if one so chooses. Calvinism would deny that humans are free to do the latter (humans can’t act against God will because God has willed their wills and hence the wills are always “compatible”). Calvinists claim “no matter, you are still free”. And some of us think that is just incoherent…

Then do you concede that these are not the “definitive proof texts” that Calvinists often claim they are? The next step for any reader is to judge which is the better exegesis of scripture.

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