God & Violence: God's capriciousness in the OT

Me too! Lots of great stuff there.

2 Likes

@stilllearning Most people find many of the events as described in the OT very disturbing. Heading the list is the genocide against the Canaanites that God supposedly directed so that the people of Israel could possess the land promised to them through Abraham. You have tried to understand this event ‘looking at it’ through the spectacles provided by Scripture and concluded it must have been justified because of the wickedness of the Canaanites–a charge unsupported by anyone except by the perpetrators of this evil act who give us the history of the event.

What if you looked at this event using the ‘spectacles’ provided by scientific evidence? Archeology shows that the area around Jericho had been occupied by modern humans for many thousands of generations. (i.e.they were NOT newcomers, offspring of Canaan, survivor of the Flood) They had learned (the hard way) to cope with the region’s environment, becoming farmers and herders in the process. They managed to at least ‘put up with’ the uninvited immigrants, Abrahams’ clan from Ur, who, when the environment turned unfavorable, had to flee (from their 'Promised Land’) to Egypt where making a living was easier. After many generations, enjoying the fleshpots of Egypt these ‘Israelite slaves’ left that land and trained in the desert to become a formidable army that could take by force the Land of Milk and Honey, the land that they believed God had promised them. Never mind that the ancestors of the men, women, and children who now occupied it had been there for thousands of generations–they were to be annihilated and a history written to justify it.

Be honest, @still_learning, which spectacles give a person a clearer view? Neither may provide the total Truth, but shouldn’t both be considered?
Al Leo

2 Likes

I am not sure, but also doesn’t archeology also support that the genocide of the Canaanites never really happened, but a lot of it is just chest thumping by later writers showing how big and bad their forefathers were as a bit of posturing?

5 Likes

You are right. There is no evidence of this happening. One wonders how former slaves got the weapons and training to invade a country.

From a theological perspective I would argue that they didn’t need training and superior weaponry, any more that David did. They literally had God on their side. From a purely anthropological view, I see your point.

Were the Israelites ever slaves in Egypt to begin with?

I think there is a little evidence that a small group of Hebrew slaves escaped from Egypt. Not the inflated numbers that the Bible uses, which serves to say that this is the story of all the Hebrews.

2 Likes

Well, recall that David was a warrior and led a band of trained soldiers. These were violent times and warfare was common. I don’t think the Hebrew slaves had many weapons at all, let alone superior ones.

I’m referring to young David the Shepherd, v. Goliath the armored (at least in the movies!) warrior.

That wasn’t really warfare, was it?

Perhaps they got the weapons at the same place they got all the gold to form the golden calf idol that so incensed Moses on his return from Mt. Sinai.
Al Leo

You are right as usual, Phil. In terms of the numbers of humans massacred, it was ‘small potatoes’ compared to what Hitler or Pol Pot accomplished. But there is so much posturing in the Old Testament that I hesitate to use any of it as a moral guide. Taken at face value, this bit of history (?) surely supports Trump’s position
on the wisdom of accepting immigrants. According to the OT, Abraham’s tribe found a permanent home in Canaan after the long journey from Ur. If they were not welcomed with open arms, neither was there a conflict to keep them out. Yet after their return from their voluntary exile in Egypt, they repaid any earlier Canaanite generosity with wonton murder–in their own account–wonton murder.

My conclusion from their own history: Any Covenant they had earlier formed with their God was in shambles. The Ark they paraded around the walls of Jericho before its destruction had become a farce. As Jesus said: “By their fruits you shall know them.” The Jews of Jesus’ time were looking for a Messiah who could lead them in a war against Rome. Obviously Jesus, humble son of a carpenter, was not that man.
Al Leo

Indeed. No time to let the bread rise, but plenty of time and foresight to “borrow” gold smithing supplies and even acquire the necessary skills, just in case they need an idol beyond the Sea of Reeds.

We cannot deny that the OT story of the Exodus, the liberation from slavery, has been a beacon for the oppressed for millennia. (E.g. so many beautiful Negro spirituals.) How much of this story are you willing to accept as factual, @beaglelady, and how much is just a fairytale–uplifting, perhaps like Pinocchio, but a fairytale, nonetheless?
Al Leo.

Of course it has.

False dichotomy, pal.

(btw, is somebody privately giving you suggestions on what to post? This doesn’t even sound like you.) Besides, I’ve already commented that there is a little evidence that a small group of Hebrew slaves escaped from Egypt.

In times like this I sure do miss our OT scholars Pete Enns and Denis Lamoureux

Though my point above wasn’t on my account knowledge (or lack the of) Canaanites history. My point was, I don’t think “Noah’s curse” had any affect on them. Whether they were prosperous or not.

C[quote=“aleo, post:22, topic:36602”]
Be honest, @still_learning, which spectacles give a person a clearer view? Neither may provide the total Truth, but shouldn’t both be considered?
[/quote]

Definitely providing food for thought.

Interesting point.

I am feeling at the point where I started to turn from traditional YEC to EC. Still haven’t come to a conclusion yet.

I can see an agenda to justify there wars. Not saying I believe that yet, but a plausible theory. But what agenda do they have for faking the Exodus?

Where does it say they trained in the desert? Maybe trained to follow God, but not for war.

You don’t think God promised them this land?

Do you believe in mana or pillar of smoke or any of that?

If you like that, download the app “read scripture” by crazy love ministries . It has verses and leads you through the Bible with Bible project videos every few days or so.

1 Like

Certainly the eviction of the Hyksos from the Egyptian homeland could have created any number of opportunities for Hyksos captives and Hyksos slave labor.

Problem One:
But imagine the Hyksos retreating out of Egypt … back into the Levant … now what? Did they have friendly home bases that welcomed their return? Or was it basically a re-occupation of their original home regions … that had to be fought almost as hard as the original invasion of Egypt?

Related Example:
When the Anglos, Saxons and Jutes invaded Britain from their points of origin in Denmark and coastal Frankish territories… there was a point in time when they basically couldn’t expect any kind of welcome back on the European mainland.

Problem Two:
But returning to the issue of the Hyksos… they were evicted from Egypt, and they moved back (to somewhere) in Canaan, right? The very next thing that happened is that Egypt started sending out its armies into the Levant, and then into Syria!

They would eventually reach their maximum extent when contact was made with the Hittites and the Hittite allies. While Syria became the contested frontier between Egypt and the Hittites, all of Canaan became “the back country” of the “Pax Egyptiana” !

This “back country” was taxed annually (or the equivalent, a yearly tribute). Were not all the occupied Canaanites now “servants” to Egypt?

[quote=“still_learning, post:36, topic:36602”]
[A. Leo] After many generations, enjoying the fleshpots of Egypt these ‘Israelite slaves’ left that land and trained in the desert to become a formidable army that could take by force the Land of Milk and Honey, the land that they believed God had promised them.

[still learning] Where does it say they trained in the desert? Maybe trained to follow God, but not for war.

You don’t think God promised them this land?

Do you believe in mana or pillar of smoke or any of that?

@still_learning When the Israelites wrote the O.T. as a history of their people, I fully expect them to slant it in their favor. Written primarily for the future generations of Jews, it was meant to give authority for the Mosaic Law that accompanied the history. (Peter & Denis can advise you if I have gotten off track so far.) If one expects a certain amount of slanting in a historical record, it is only reasonable to use other sources, when available, to check on the accuracy of the account of a particular event. For me, as a scientist, the sciences of archeology and paleontology seem to provide dependable second sources. I can appreciate someone accepting the claim that the OT is actually the Word of God and therefore inerrant, and the thought of using second sources is abhorrent. I just thought you might be interested in where these second sources has led a skeptical scientist like me who has, at least in his own heart, remained Christian. Space allows for the examination of only a couple of OT claims:
1) OT: Abraham, as founder of God’s Chosen People, was given,in a dream, the Promised Land of Canaan. After the long journey from Ur (and stopover at Haran), the Canaanites allowed them to settle in their country. Sci: Humans had lived for a thousand or more generations (since 40K BC) in the area now called Canaan, learning by trial and error how to eke out a living in a harsh environment. It was in this general area than humans first learned how to plant and harvest grain; how to domesticate wild animals as a dependable source of food. Question: Why would a just God overlook the efforts of the long term inhabitants and hand the land over to newcomers? Were the Canaanites evil and Abrahams clan more holy? Who says so, other than the authors of the OT.
2) OT: The Jews were abject slaves in Egypt, and God performed miracles to set them free. They were, after all, his Chosen People. Problelm: To escape an earlier famine in Canaan, the Jews had found a haven in Egypt where they were welcomed as workers (and eventually became slaves?) Nothing shows up in Egyptian history, including the plagues. However, after crossing over to the Sinai (drowning 50,000 Egyptians in the process), the Jews longed for the better food they enjoyed in Egypt, and they collected all the gold they had accumulated (as slaves?) and fashioned an idol.

So how much of the Exodus story is hard core factual history and how much is simply embellishment to impress the future generations of Jews to keep the Mosaic Laws. I prefer to look for agreement from multiple sources to decide. Anyone willing to accept OT literally because it is inerrant will reach different conclusions as to how the Angel of Death passed over the Jewish households; how the Red Sea was parted and then closed over the pursuing Egyptian chariots; how the Jews were led by pillars of smoke and then by fire. The 40 yrs (?) the Jews spent in the desert must have hardened them a great deal, and Joshua was able to form them into an army capable of overwhelming their past benefactors, the Canaanites.

All of this is interesting from a historical point of view, but it is not vital in the way I form my Christian Faith. I will admit it, @stilllearning, I’m an odd ball.
Al Leo

Hi Still_Learning,
I hope you are aware that the fraction of theological “oddballs” on this Forum is significantly higher than in the general public of BioLogos supporters, which consists primarily of evangelical Christians. So discussions on many topics (such as the authenticity of the OT) here tend to give a skewed impression of the actual “climate” of thinking among BioLogos supporters, in my opinion. For example, I think (and sincerily hope) that there is only a small fraction of people who would view the “pillar of fire” travelling with the Jews through the desert as nothing but an “embellishment” added by Jewish scribes for political reasons.

Casper

2 Likes

George, I’ve heard this idea (a small band of Israelite slaves escaping from Egypt) from several reliable sources.