God’s interventions?

@GJDS

Apologies in advance if your definitions of “stochastic” and “random” have already been posted on this thread. I tried to find them before my first post but I couldn’t find a clear definition and there doesn’t seem to be a mathematical distinction between the two terms other that random being generally used to qualify variables and stochastic being generally used to qualify processes involving random variables.

Maybe you are using “stochastic” to refer to events that God knows but we don’t and “random” to refer to events that even God cannot predict? Likely it is something different from this so it would only generate confusion to comment further without precise definitions for these terms.

It have a feeling that we may have a significantly different understanding of Jesus death. To me he was not sacrificed to pleas God for his lust of revenge but he died for me to show me how the problem of mortality can be overcome by accepting Gods reality to take that cup when the end comes and not to demand to be spared. We are still subject to the same law and we will still be mortal if we do not find our way back to God through the example of Jesus. Do you think God is a God of hate who wanted blood for the disobediance of Adam and Eve and wished them dead, e.g that he said “if you eat from that tree I will surely have you killed”?

A lot of people contests this. Perhaps 75% of the world’s population if the God that you refer to is the Christian God and not Allah or one of the thousands of gods human have conceived of. And of course the non-believers of any gods don’t think your God know all the results of all coin tosses.

@Eddie

Excellent. The clarity of principles such as the ones below is why I wanted to establish this understanding before delving into more involved matters. I am waiting to see if these will match the definitions that @GJDS and @Jon_Garvey also had/have in mind:

If we start from these principles then I agree with everything you wrote on your post, including that my utilization of “determining” the outcome of a coin toss meant “finding out the outcome” rather than the “causing the outcome” definition use in God’s predetermination of events.

Let’s then proceed with your stochastic definition in the sense of a “real world” coin toss where there would be nothing unpredictable about it if we knew all the parameters of the toss.

That said, what is exactly the conflict that you see between “front-loading” and stochastic neo-Darwinism?

I will understand if instead of describing it yourself you choose to forward me to an online exposition of this “inherent contradiction” - even that would move the discussion along faster than reading “Mayr, Dobzhansky, Gaylord Simpson, etc.”. Nothing against reading them, it’s just that you may not be willing to wait that long for a followup response :smile:

@Eddie

Does the term “random” in your definition of neo-Darwinism have the same meaning as “stochastic” in the previous post or is it invoking a different concept? In other words, would God have foreknowledge of all “random” events invoked in neo-Darwinism or not?

If you are using “random” to mean “stochastic” (though I doubt that), then since no one can “rewind time” or “travel” through time but God, the distinction between “stochastic” neo-Darwinism and “front-loading” as defined in your post is fundamentally undecidable - we have no way to run the exact same events multiple times to see whether the outcome is guaranteed or not.

In my view there is not only theological but pretty good scientific evidence for front loading. The earliest fossils of living organisms (not really fossils, but signs of fossils) seem to indicate the presence of photosynthesis very early on. We also cannot see any further back than the early DNA/enzyme type of cell. Lets not forget that RNA world, and all the talk of chemical prebiotic “evolution”, catalytic clays, metabolic hypercycles, and all the other hypotheses of origin of life are just that - hypotheses. With no evidence at all favoring any one of them. In other words, as best we know, LUCA was already an extremely complex, advanced cell, and primed for continuing evolution by the error repair systems, and genotype phenotype linkages that make evolution inevitable in DNA based life forms. Furthermore out of the uncountable number of protein folds that are possible, LUCA probably already had the prototypes for all the proteins we see today in modern life. So, I would say that a front loading hypothesis is in fact quite well supported,

As for the origin of LUCA, we really have no idea.

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This statement is so grossly wrong in what I have said, and offensive, that I will not continue this conversation.

@Eddie, Nice clear choice! And the opposite of being a “Front-Loader” is the belief that even God can’t plan for every detail, and he must introduce additional “guidance” above and beyond communicating in prayer.

There will be a tendency for people to resist the “clock-maker” paradigm … but that paradigm doesn’t usually include God communicating in prayer with humanity.

So as long as prayer is allowed in a front-loaded system, it is still NOT a true clock-maker paradigm.

George

I think @Eddie has made sufficient comment on random for ND evolution - the thought experiment from Gould is given to illustrate the meaning to random, in a scientific (ND evolution) context. I am showing how this would be theologically incompatible with the teachings of Christianity regarding God.

@Eddie

I don’t mean to get too technical with respect to biological stochastic processes so I will just say, at least for now, that genomic events (generalizing from just “mutations” to also include recombination, rearrangements, etc) are not observed in extant genomes with a uniform distribution over the whole genome; e.g., DNA copying machinery makes more errors in some types of sequences than others, DNA repair enzymes do a better job in some areas than others, etc. In brief, most of the genomic events observed in microevolution may indeed be useless (genotype/phenotype associations are still in their infancy) but a large majority of potentially harmful genomic events are already “fixed” inside the cell.

To the best of my knowledge, “random” and “stochastic” events drawn from the same probability distribution are indistinguishable from a scientific point of view. Given the immensity of parameters in most events of interest (starting with coin tosses all the way through evolution) and given our inability to ascertain precise values for all relevant parameters, science is highly unlikely to ever allow us to find out whether events are “truly random” (in the sense that the exact same experiment with the exact same parameters could result in a different outcome - Gould’s view, as I read it) or actually just stochastic. However, in view of the high predictive ability of scientific models, I would say that there is overwhelming evidence that nature is stochastic, not random.

It follows that if science cannot tell between “random” and “stochastic” then what remains is for scientists (not science), to impute their beliefs (aka, faith) that the process is random rather than stochastic. In fact, I find it odd for biologists to postulate that given the exact same initial conditions for the whole universe (which is only possible as a theoretical experiment, of course), it would still be possible to obtain a completely different outcome. More likely the statement was made in the limited context where the exact same first cell would have been exposed to a “similar” environment and thus the outcome could of course be different in a parallel universe.

If you pose the question in such simple terms then my purely scientific answer would also be that no, the outcome is not guaranteed because we don’t know the parameters for the rest of the universe. However, if you ask any scientist whether the exact same theoretical experiment conducted with the exact same parameters is expected to yield the exact same results them you will get an overwhelmingly positive response.

This is why I see no conflict in reconciling front-loading with a scientific understanding of evolution as a stochastic process. If it is to be understood that neo-Darwinism must include non-deterministic outcomes for the exact same initial parameters then I think you would find very few scientists supporting that view as a scientific paradigm.

As a Christian, I am much more inclined to front-loading than to the alternative hypothesis where our timeless, all-knowing, all-powerful God would be eternally bound to “dodging random bullets” much like Neo does in The Matrix when he’s revealed as “the one”. Of course, far from me to say that “it cannot be so” but that does not seem to me to agree with the Biblical description of God.

I agree with that conclusion completely.

Only God has that level of information and analytical power.

George

I’m not interested in being handed a reading list. I’m interested in your discussion of it with others. I will try not to muddy the waters too much with my ignorance.

Your clarifications above are illuminating, so thank you for typing them out. Just to make sure I have it straight: You don’t see any way that someone who presents Neo-Darwinism as compatible with a Creator can allow for God’s will to act on creation in real time beyond the first “domino push.” It’s not just that they are claiming we can’t know or observe where and when God’s will is “intervening,” but the model they are presenting prohibits divine intervention once the timeline of causes and effects is initiated, and the inherent randomness of the mechanisms proposed by Neo-Darwinism makes it incompatible with with the concept of completely predetermined outcomes. Is that about right? If so, I see why you object.

For clarity’s sake, I would like to point out that this is NOT the option that Collins describes for BioLogos.

He describes a Front-Loaded system in the FIRST option that @Eddie describes.

George