God’s interventions?

My emphasis too, GJDS - but it’s also to warn people that there are Epicurean theologies around that prefer randomness, though usually prettying it up with the name “freedom”.

If it were truly random it would be free only in the sense of chaotic. If it is “stochastic” in the sense I’ve suggested, it is creatorially constrained, even determined (in information terms). But creation entails limitation of possibilities, and is therefore incompatible with “not planned”.

It is impossible to create ateleologically, just as it is impossible to design purposelessly - all you can do as an alternative is to leave things uncreated. But if you are truly a monotheist (let alone a Christian), you have to accept that if something is left uncreated, it cannot exist.

To invoke chance as an alternative to purpose is therefore to posit a second creator (of an Epicurean type). If that is done in the name of Christianity it’s more than a variant theology. If it’s done in the name of evangelicalism it’s an impostor.

but to me that law is one and the same thing, e.g. the law being to love thy neighbour like thyself. if you see god and his creation as your “self” it is immediately clear that what disobeys the rule is eliminated. Thus in terms of evolution whatever emerges is probed against the law and if it fails to love thy neighbour like thyself it is eliminated on the basis that the system that does not love / benefit thy neighbour thus support creation in total is an evolutionary dead end. In other words the law eradicates selfishness.

The problem I would have is the randomness is in the context of genetic mutations as I would expect change to come from combinatorial events. Whilst they might occasionally happen randomly by fusions / transcription on close proximity in time / space I would think the coming together of compatible units to be a more efficient way of progress - a bit like with the change from prokaryotes to eukaryotes by sharing capabilities to the benefit of each other as a prime example for revolutionary progress

Jon

Have you blogged this on Hump? If so, I would love to reblog it. If not can I post it from you as guest blogger? It is to me a brilliant solution to… well just about everything. Thanks for posting it here.

Could you explain this further? What do you mean by determining all things?

I think part of the problem in these kind of discussions is that words have baggage from other disciplines and people often feel they can’t say what they do mean because they are trying too hard to avoid saying what they don’t mean.

Even after all the threads I have read, I’m still not sure what Neo-Darwinism is or why it is invoked so many times. Personally, I don’t see any problem in affirming that God intervenes, guides, directs, controls, enforces, or otherwise acts to ensure that the history of life and humanity unfold according to his will and design in whatever way he chooses, both within the parameters of natural law and outside of them. I also don’t understand why some people feel it is an automatic denial of that affirmation if a scientist wants to look for a natural explanation for why things are the way they are. I don’t think looking denies the possibility that a scientific answer may not be found or that there is more to the picture than the scientific answer alone.

I also think the scope of God’s will and design is larger than we may sometimes imagine. I think of it more as an on-going shaping or conducting process that is responsively creative and inherently relational more than an impersonal carrying out of some sort of preordained blueprints.

I don’t think that acknowledging freedom in nature or choice in humanity limits God or removes God from the equation. Discussing the issues of foreknowledge, predestination, Arminian vs. Calvinist conceptions of sovereignty, and all that often feels to me like some Derrida-esque exercise in textuality where one is constantly deconstructing and never getting beyond the various “texts” to anything solid that you can come to rest on. So I have gotten bored with it.

it is stunning where you get without “distracters”. Better do some studies into stochastic and random processes but wikipedia suggests it still is not deterministic. I have to look at random walks in more detail to see how they respond to constraints which is very interesting for something I do work wise so I guess it needs more polishing up

Wikipedia
In probability theory, a stochastic (/stoʊˈkæstɪk/) process, or often random process, is a collection of random variables, representing the evolution of some system of random values over time. This is the probabilistic counterpart to a deterministic process (or deterministic system). Instead of describing a process which can only evolve in one way (as in the case, for example, of solutions of an ordinary differential equation), in a stochastic or random process there is some indeterminacy: even if the initial condition (or starting point) is known, there are several (often infinitely many) directions in which the process may evolve.

and as Wolfram states

Stochastic is synonymous with “random.” The word is of Greek origin and means “pertaining to chance” (Parzen 1962, p. 7). It is used to indicate that a particular subject is seen from point of view of randomness. Stochastic is often used as counterpart of the word “deterministic,” which means that random phenomena are not involved. Therefore, stochastic models are based on random trials, while deterministic models always produce the same output for a given starting condition.

Christy

I think your second sentence in the above quote fully explains the problems that many people have with ND, as it has come to be used (evolved?). Originally an explanation of how molecular genetics could explain the variation that drives the first step in evolution, ND has now become a philosophical view about evolution that is expressly opposed to your second sentence. Atheistic proponents of ND hold that evolution cannot be in any way guided or directional, that all change is random, that gene centered biology is key to understanding all of living processes, including evolution. Genetic determinism often goes hand in hand with ND (although that is a later add on). ND is relatively simplistic, and tends to treat more complex mechanisms as simply subsets of the basic idea of the slow accumulation of rare random mutations as the main mechanism for inheritable variation.

I feel that ND is not wrong so much as incomplete to the point of being…well wrong. We know as scientific fact that all aspects of life are far far more complex than allowed for by ND. Dr. Garvey’s insight above, for example would be roundly rejected by ND proponents, despite its logical structure. Roger’s insistence on ecological factors in evolution is also dismissed as trivial by NDers. And so on.

The good news is that alternatives to ND (from non theistic scientists) in evolutionary theory are blossoming. (See my blog post on New Evolutionary Biology PArts 1 -3, or some upcoming papers for more information). So there is hope.

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better get back to work as interesting as this is but as an engineer by heart I feel that randomness can still be combined with a deterministic point of view. I wish I had more study time but paid work has to be put ahead. Trying to look up random determinism I found the text below. I guess it is what my gut feeling tells me about the constraint on the random events. I wish I could express myself better but I think this is along what I think :

This conclusion makes no sense, Stochastic processes are random processes.

The function that you describe above is a sin wave with random phase. Theta is a random variable with any value between zero and 2 pi. Once theta is measured/determined, the value of x(t) can be deterministically calculated. There is no need to measure x(t) as it is fully determined by the value of theta. Conversely you can measure x(t) at t=t sub zero and determine what theta was at that time. The phase is random but the amplitude function is deterministic.

How kind, Sy!

I’m so used to this idea now that it’s just one of the “working hypotheses” of the project. I did a blog on it here back in February, but by all means re-post it in the form it’s here on the Book of Works if you think your readers might find it helpful. By all means tweak the format.

Jon

thanks for that link. Looks like a nice reading to go with a few pints of coffee

We should be very thankful that scientists look for natural explanations for natural phenomena. That’s why we have vaccinations and don’t die in droves from smallpox, etc. It’s why our lifespans are longer these days. Instead of attributing epilepsy and mental illness to demon possession, we have medications for these illnesses. If plague breaks out, we can find the infectious agent and do something about it, instead of blaming Jews and organizing pogroms to slaughter them. Scientists only find natural causes when they look for them.

Things are not the same in all parts of the world. In some parts of Africa, for example, the mentally ill are chained up against their will in “prayer camps” because their illness is seen as a spiritual one.

Christy, I can’t answer either for GJDS or in his inimitable style, but a couple of suggestions:

(a) The appeal of strict Neodarwinian theory to materialists is that, because it works “automatically” on random mutration and, essentially, by selection by a random environment, it doesn’t need any direction - chance will explore possibilities and always win. It’s the only evolutionary theory that could (intuitively, if not in real life) rely on true randomness.

As soon as other natural processes are involved (like fancy new evolution by natural genetic engineering, emergence etc) it’s less like an open-ended chance exploration and more like a process unfolding from within (analogous to an oak from an acorn). That, indirectly, makes God a better explanation than chance, and so it’s resisted.

To the atheist, then, for the theist to propose that any of neodarwinian evolution is guided actually spoils the point of the theory, but that’s a judgement of metaphysics, not of science.

(b) That said, a strong (ie traditional, through from Augustine to the Reformers and beyond) doctrine of providence has no problem embracing even strict Neodarwinian evolution, and yah boo sucks to the atheists! But using low probability mutations might be seen as not the most obvious way for God to get from A to B - it almost looks like he’s hiding (but see my post above). It’s also questionable if the ND mechanism is capable of being directed that closely (eg, to produce man over 4 bn years) - even Michaelangelo can’t paint the Lord’sprayer on a rice grain with a shoe brush. That’s why many of us think the Neodarwinian synthesis has had its day - and wonder why it still gets touted as the “standard theory” here.

© But though there’s no great problem at all for classic theology with guided evolution, even via “random” mutation and natural selection alone, there are theistic evolutionists (perhaps a majority of those nowadays representing TE) who don’t want evolution to be guided, apart from in the most general way, such as that God set it up and “let it operate”.

This is either because of a hatred of the idea of providence (usually to do with co-opting ideas of human free-will and applying them to “Nature” (whatever that is!), or a Deistic Christianity descended from the “nature a closed system of laws” of Leibniz and that Enlightenment crowd - again, making directed evolution not difficult scientifically, but undesirable metaphysically - like the materialists, and for similar reasons, possibly.

There is a prevalent confusion in theistc evolution between the word “freedom”, which is valid only for the human will and, hence, always accounted for carefully in classical doctrines of providence, however much sovereignty they grant God; and “randomness” in nature, miscalled “freedom”.

Clearly they have nothing in common in reality: what kind of freedom do we think it’s moral for God to grant to rocks, or DNA bases? Am I to be equally scrupulous in granting freedom to my money to blow away in the wind, or to my plants in not being “coerced” into hybrid varieties in my garden? Likewise, my free will gains absolutely zilch by being a product of randomness - otherwise know as “outrageous fortune.”

There is no definition of Neo-Darwinism that specifically includes God’s involvement or intervention.

The usual resolution is for a person to characterize the randomness of Neo-Darwinism as something that is not actually random in the eyes of God.

George

@Eddie,

I would be fascinated if you can provide statistics for how many writers say what.

But you do draw valid attention to how disputable the use of labels like “Theistic Evolution” (TE). It is an endless sack of worms.

Evolution is God-Guided, or it is not…

George

@Eddie,

Pretend I didn’t post anything. I think we’ll both be happier.

George