Well, actually, the usual interpretation for that reference to Stars is connected to the following verse:
“From the heavens the stars fought. From the sky they fought against Sisera. The Kishon River swept them away.”
Stars were considered a kind of angelic being that controlled the sky windows from which the waters ABOVE
the Firmament would be released onto the earth below. In this case, this is a reference to a sudden storm
that created flood conditions on the Kishon River.
Naturally, we point out that the following to those Evangelicals of the Literalist campe:
stars are too far away to control rain on Earth;
there are no windows in the sky;
there are no waters above the firmament.
But a more reasonable interpretation is that there may be angels who
triggered flood conditions at the Lord’s will.
Evolution is Variation and Natural Selection. God created the process of Variation to produce evolutionary change and uses Natural Selection by ecological fitness to guide evolutionary change. These two natural processes produced humanity as God intended us to be, to have the ability to do good and evil, right and wrong.
God does not have to intervene to make God’s processes work, but there might be some maintenance and guidance to make sure everything is ruling properly called providence.
The facts indicate that ecological evolution created humanity. The environment favors beings who think and cooperate. Since God created the earth and its environment and made it rational and relational, ipso facto God created humans on God’s own Image through evolution. There is no speculation or faith involved. It is a proven fact.
@GJDS This one sentence from your exellent post focuses on (one of) the most important points that have divided Christians in the past (and in the current discussions of this topic): In what sense are events in this Universe predestined? Some in the BioLogos audience apparently are strict Calvanists, while some, like myself, take Morriss’ view (in Life’s Solutions) that evolution strongly trends toward solving basic environmental challenges (seeing, hearing, thinking) but in a contingent, not a foreordained, manner. What joy could the Creator get from watching the Universe follow precisely the script He had written for it? Is it sacrilegious to think the God might enjoy being surprised–might enjoy watching one of His creatures accept the invitation to influence its own destiny–be, in a sense, co-creators with Him?
Al Leo
Maybe it’s ignorance, but I always read Judges 4 as a prose account in prosaic language, and Judges 5 as a parallel poem of the same events, in poetic language. I attribute the astronomical language to the same cause as Deborah’s graphic account of Sisera’s mother, even though she can’t have known anything accurate about it.
Unless God tells me what he enjoys I think it’s a bit presumptuous of me to tell him. It’s even rather presumptuous to assume that “enjoyment” is what he does - it rather suggests the maker and sustainer of all entertaining himself.
Both “scripts” and “surprises” are anthropomorphisms, and anthropomorphisms run the risk of being idolatrous. GJDS has been wise enough not to go beyond what is revealed.
What?!? The dinosaurs did not burn or starve to death?!? Did you never here of the Chicxulub crater? Yes, they were just hanging around enjoying life and then an asteroid hit the Yucatan Penisula creating a 110 miles diameter crater 12 miles deep. Oh, yes another nice day in the world 66 million years ago. Mass extinction to follow.
@Jon—Garvey Unless God tells me what he enjoys I think it’s a bit presumptuous of me to tell him.
Did I not make it clear that I was ‘merely speculating’–and speculating anthropomorphically, at that? I am totally amazed that God seeks friendship with me. The only way I can love God is anthropomorphically, and I am not ashamed of that. I’m sorry if that appears offensive to you.
Al Leo
I dont see us being stuck in a hostile environment at all. I mean compared to any other planetary environment we know of, this is a pretty good one. (Unless you are speaking of Pandora in Avatar).
[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:19, topic:3316”]
I don’t see why his character and his way of acting should be any different in the human and natural realms, if only because there’s no sharp disctinction between the two.
[/quote
My comment about God nudging an asteroid was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek, and to serve as an illustrations, although admittedly a fairly ludicrous one. But my question was serious, and I appreciate the answer from Jon, namely that he sees no difference why intervention in our personal lives and in the course of biological evolution should be different. I tend to agree with that, but I dont have a firm opinion, and certainly no idea of the relevant theology.
]
This post was somewhat inspired by some of our earlier exchanges (some of them even going back a few years) on the question of God’s role in the evolutionary process. I agree with GJDS and (I think Jon) that we will not discover any mechanisms for such interventions (which is why I wasnt serious about “nudging”), but that doesnt forbid us from a discussion of whether such interventions occur.
Hello Sy
I experienced a several times an interference by what I call a “Higher Power”.
In the summer when I became 18, I was on my bicycle in another town going somewhere and suddenly my bike turned off into a side street. Still wondering what had happened I took the next street in my original direction, which was apparently the intention, as a short distance further, I was shown something of my future that would happen when I would be 47 years old. I rejected it as nonsense, but when I was 47 years old, it has happened exactly as shown to me and it was, and is still, extremely important to me. It changed my life completely.
Much later I was driving in my car and suddenly a red light went on: no oil pressure. I cut the motor and let the car run on to a spot where I could park. I checked the oil level: no level at all. With less than a half hour delay I arrived at my destination and discovered that I had missed a shooting. The next day a neighbor towed me to a repair shop. There they checked the oil level and found a full carter!
Usually I don’t talk about these things, because I don’t like to be ridiculed the rest of my life.
I believe that God created our universe. Because time is a dimension of our universe, He was then and now and in the future able to oversee the past, the now and the future. So he was able to arrange things to get the future results he wanted. I also presume that he left room for choice by us, common people. A really free choice, to do right or to do wrong. A free choice, although he always knows already the outcome.
And sometimes miracles do happen. Reverend Arie van der Veer of the EO, the Dutch Evangelic broadcast, showed a recorded miracle on Dutch TV during a Sunday morning service: A woman, deadly ill, already many years in a wheelchair because she was unable to stand on her right leg, was in a church, and after praying for her healing she was invited to stand up from her wheelchair.
She stood up hesitantly, discovered that she could stand on her leg and that the pain was gone. She ran on her bare feet to her husband, stamping in disbelief with her right foot a few times on the floor.
Maybe Biologos should ask the EO a copy of that emission.
The question(s) of foreknowledge, predestination, freedom, and human choices require clear thinking and a sound theological basis, otherwise we take a road to endless confusion. I have made one or two serious posts that briefly addressed these matters, but I felt the comments were “too dense” and difficult - this is understandable in light of the theological understanding we need for such discussions. In view of the bewildering views expressed in this forum, on God’s attributes as revealed, I concluded it was impossible to go far into these questions. As I have said on many occasions, the starting point is our individual (and free) outlook regarding God and Salvation in Christ - everything follows from this (and people should read Calvin with this in mind).
I will point out some salient features needed for such a discussion on a forum such as this: The basis for a Christian is the singular attribute of freedom - this is synonymous with the “divine image”, the “breath of God” and created by God - thus to be truly human is to be truly free.
The creation is for-known and predetermined by God - to us however, it is also an inexhaustible range of possibilities presenting as a future, and our choices determine our individual present. We need to acknowledge our limitations and avoid assuming these apply to God. The surprises that God enjoys are recorded aleo - eg Christ said, I have not seen such faith in all of Israel - you constantly conflate evolutionary nonsense with what God can and cannot do. The act of creation by God provides constant surprises to scientists, not the other way around. The gift of life and reason from God should enable us to create good and beautiful things on this earth, not cause us to think we too are gods. Our freedom is more often expressed through horror, violence, destruction, deceit, and debauchery - this is a cause for great sorrow on this planet.
I do agree that the death of the dinosaurs was not an accident, because I do believe that God acts, and unlike Beagle lady, I think it was overall a good thing, despite the unquestioning suffering of many animals at the rime. This is not a subject for debate, it is a profound and a priori difference that she and I have about the importance of animal suffering. I do understand and respect her view as expressed in her first comment avout why would God cause such suffering. But I dont agree with it.