Giving Calvinism a ... longer glance

Faith & Science Conversation
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You commented: BTW, I’m developing a new appreciation for high church liturgies. Many evangelicals have written liturgy off as “too Catholic” (or “too Orthodox”?), but the while their churches were deciding that liturgy was too forced or stodgy and so abandoning it, what really happened is that they abandoned their kids to the recitations of the liturgies of the world, and as it turns out, profit-pursuing industries have no such reticence about spreading their secular liturgies to us from the entertainment portals in our living rooms. Basically, evangelicals let the devil have all the liturgy and have barely begun to wake up to the fact - probably too late. So the Catholic and Orthodox churches are to be commended [yes–Lutherans and many others as well] for standing steadfastly in that gap. It turns out that the regular recitation of words, even when “we don’t always feel it” still has a formational, habit-building effect on our spirits. I owe the insights of this last paragraph to the Canadian philosopher, Dr. James K.A. Smith."

A few months ago, I went to a non-liturgical Protestant service at my uncle’s church. The pastor there is a Dallas grad. Part way into the service I thought how strange it was that there was no litany - the set of prayers for a great variety of things that we Orthodox begin the liturgy with. Instead, this church began its service with a song played with guitar, drums and so on and the words on a screen. I guess this is pretty standard fare now, isn’t it?

The focus of the service seemed to be what was within the walls of that building. There was nothing about "seasonable weather, for the abundance of the fruits of the earth, for peaceful times, for the welfare of the holy churches of God, for the President of the United States, for those that travel, etc., etc. See

to see the litany at the start of the liturgy.

Doesn’t it seem appropriate to pray to God about these things in a systematic way? We have the list so that we can be complete as possible. The morning prayers that the Church has provided go step by step through many kinds of concerns. I don’t have to trust to my memory.

Those that don’t like “arranged” formats I guess worry that there will be vain repetition but non-repetitive, spontaneous activity can be vain as well. In my brief exposure to Charismatic arrangements, I never heard any “tongue” translated into English - never. Not once. That seemed pretty vain to me. Our society with its short attention span and craving for entertainment and novelty shouldn’t form how we worship.

As far as diversity among those that claim Jesus as their Saviour - we shouldn’t have loyalties to various ways of thinking like some do to different football or basketball teams. Jesus prayed in the Garden that we would be one as He and the Father are one. Schisms and heresies have happened because of big and little differences that were deliberately pursued. The tastes and opinions of individuals are not the most important things. We exist to become like God and have communion with Him. Who offers the surest path for that? I don’t think it is someone whose church has communion once a month or once a quarter and teaches that it is a memorial only. 1 Corinthians 10:16 does not teach that. Neither does John 6. If a church defies what the Bible says and what the Church taught for fifteen hundred years, those that can read should flee that church and never return.

As far as money goes . . . In the Creed we say, “And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father (note the difference with Rome’s version), Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, Who spoke by the prophets.” We have today many that speak “by the profits.” How many more English versions (and versions of versions) do we need? Do other countries have as many translations as we have?

Follow the money.

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There can be balance to the extremes. Those of us who don’t use systematic prayers (many of whom are also not Charismatic) often simply see it as trusting the Spirit to bring to mind urgent and timely requests as necessary. My church has a fairly lengthy prayer each Sunday for very specific and timely concerns that have been brought up over the week, from local issues to global ones.

As far as communion, I’m not sure it’s fair to say that a church “defies what the Bible says” because they appear to emphasize one aspect of something more than another. You can find prooftexts for many things (and this goes back to the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate), but coming down more on one side of an issue does not mean those on the other side are in some kind of defiance, any more than it means those who hold to evolutionary creation “defy what the Bible says” because we don’t believe in a young earth.

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I have to laugh. I attend a very nice Baptist church. My kids (10 and 7) groaaan at the long prayers and the multiple verses of “Just as I Am.” I think we’ll never find a church service that is totally easy for kids–or have you found one?

I think it’s a spiritual discipline :slight_smile: (just kidding). Has anyone ever heard of the Patch the Pirate Song of the Wiggly Worm for kids?

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It’s true, other languages don’t have as many translation as English has. In fact, there are lots and lots of languages (and practicing Christian communities speaking those languages) that don’t have any translation at all to guide their Christian discipleship. Interestingly, it’s usually the Protestants that actually care about that fact, not the Orthodox. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I’m not Orthodox, even though I had an Antiochan friend in southern California that had me very nearly convinced that I should convert at one point in my life.

AMW

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I suppose it is pretty common. My particular church (Mennonite) does do regular litanies during every service, though not so numerously and so long as many of your glorious litanies are. Content-wise our litanies could almost be exchanged or shared with yours, save a few references to “blessed virgin mother” or some of those references that Protestants left behind. You are right, though, that too many of us have much too provincial and self-directed focus with our attentions. Musically our church does traditional hymns, and when we have instrumentation (which is frequently) it’s done by folks with more of a blue grass or fiddling flavor than that of what most people probably think of as contemporary (which usually involves a trap set, and amplified instrumentation.) If drums are being played in our church they’re probably some African variety. All that said, we also sing some contemporary songs too, so our music is pretty eclectic, and that maybe isn’t typical, even among Mennonite churches much less in wider contemporary Protestantism.

I’m curious, do Easter Orthodox congregations sing with 4 part harmony? Organs or other instrumentation? Or is there more chanting?

Actually at (probably every!) Mennonite church you wouldn’t have to worry about anybody speaking in tongues. You’d probably sooner get Mennonites on a dance floor than your would get them to speak in a tongue. No worries about interpretation there. We won’t give you anything that would need it!

Regarding repetition, I think there is an advantage that “the familiar” has over the new, in that during the familiar, if I know it well enough, I have much better chance of disengaging my mind from the mechanics of the music, trying to remember or learn new words, etc. so that my mind is free for meditation and praise —none of which is happening while I’m trying to get familiar with new material (aside from the fact that learning new things can also be a form of praise --no dispute from me there – but it is frustrating if you are so rarely allowed to enjoy the fruits of such learning by celebrating and truly performing the now-familiar). There is much to be said for old hymns as far as I’m concerned.

As far as your appeal for unity – and by that you mean unity within your particular tradition, I respect your drive to share that here. What else can or should a person do but bring out the treasures that he has found to share with the world? And you have many. Keep your mind open to occasionally receiving gifts from others as well. There are many different ways the Lord’s supper is celebrated, and I for one would not want to hold up our own way (or yours either) as being the only “valid” expression of that. God is bigger than any of our traditions will ever capture – even ancient and venerated ones from the highest churches. I don’t think unity means that we must all think exactly alike. God has children from many different nations and peoples.

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Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, in his book, The Orthodox Church, writes that there was a developing mutual incomprehension. Greek fell out of use in the West and Latin was less common in the East.

I believe that if there had been more than one patriarchate in the Western part of the Roman Empire, Rome might have not assumed certain theological creativity that the Eastern four patriarchates didn’t, such as the filioque and some other items. When the Western Roman Empire fell apart, Rome was the only political constant, although it was subject to some political pressures.

Rome did feel that it should tell everyone else what to do, while the others gave Rome the honor as the first among equals but not the authority to dictate to the Christian world. If the Byzantines had been able to keep the Muslims confined to the Arabian Peninsula, a lot would have been different. Instead the East came under the rule of the Muslims. For a long time, Russia was under Mongol rule. Things were pretty grim.

I also believe that if Luther and Calvin had been Orthodox, they would not have left the Church. Orthodoxy has had its controversies but not indulgences and some other things that made it appear that Rome was financially and spiritually abusing the faithful.

It’s clear from the New Testament that there were problems from the beginning. If it had been a golden age, Paul’s letters would have been quite different. The writings of the Fathers also addressed problems of behavior and doctrine. It took quite a while to nail down a lot of things. Father John Behr’s book, The Way to Nicaea, is useful in this regard.

If we look at the heresies of the last few centuries, they seem to have arisen out of the non-Catholic West, where people take the Bible and determine what it means on their own. Hence there were Trinitarians and Unitarians in the same Congregational churches, even though their notions of God were radically different. Those people that are dynamic enough can persuade a lot of people to accept some new ideas. Have you ever wondered why so many believed Joseph Smith’s stories about golden plates that only he could translate? With the Orthodox, things are usually settled once and for all. New ideas are compared with what has already been accepted as final.

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You’ve got us there! If there’s one major export we have …
[with no trade deficits in sight I don’t suppose!]

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Yes, I believe so.

And Exeter Cathedral in the UK has given is a new Icon of Saint Thomas. This article might be interesting to others.

In the West Trinity Sunday is the 1st Sunday after Pentecost. Close enough.

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I hope you realize that this is biblical and not (gasp) Roman Catholic

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I wasn’t mentioning it to dispute it – only to point out that those references aren’t used in (most?) protestant church liturgies. Certainly not ours anyway – and not because somebody recently decided “Oh --we can’t have that!”, but more that it hasn’t been part of our liturgical practice probably since the refomration. We might refer to her in a phrase like that, but not as means of trying to invoke her favor.

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What? The Magnificat (Song of Mary) is sung at every service of Choral Evensong in the Anglican and Episcopal churches. And it’s part of the Lutheran service book also. And Bach’s setting of the Magnificat is a masterpiece. Your Bible should have the Song of Mary in the Gospel of Luke.

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We love the Magnificat! Look over in the neighboring favorite hymns thread for a favorite song I just posted there. --a great song of Mary and an echo of Hannah’s song of old.

Let me repeat: I wasn’t mentioning it [Mary’s exaltation in liturgies] to dispute it.

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But you claimed that it hasn’t been part of our liturgical practice probably since the reformation.

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Indeed. Probably just my confusion.

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while I think the EO service is magnificent and can teach us a great deal, I have also experienced the pleasure and joy in Protestant (or various denominations) that include the congregation singing hymns. This type of participation in worship is a wonderful thing.

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After years of studying Calvin/Armenian and Predestination/Freewill I came to the conclusion that the very real Biblical paradox is resolved in the Trinity. That predestination is in the will of the Father, freewill is in God that interacts with man: Jehovah/Jesus. This also eliminates Biblical contradictions such as “made to be taken and destroyed” and “willing that none should perish.” Worked this out with my friend Fred Marsh. It’s like a play in which the Father is the director/script writer, Jesus is the starring role fully God submitting to the script and plays the role of God with man , and the Holy Spirit is he producer creating setting, people, places etc. This is my nutshell version. It maintains the paradox and eliminates contradiction as simple as it is. It however was like an epiphany for me.

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So it’s like “From Script to Screen.” I usually enjoy those video clips.

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As a Calvinist who has spent far too long arguing over soteriology I have a comment and an observation.

The comment is that Calvinists do not deny free will. If fact we have the most libertine view of the free will around. We argue that you will always choose what you most want at any given time. You could say we deny self-denial–but we don’t deny free will. And until you are regenerated you will have no desire for God and therefore will not choose God. After you are regenerated, you will be given a desire for God (a new heart of flesh) and in your own will you will choose God. This is the idea that your actions are determined, but not by a puppet master God; they are self-determined by your desires, and because of the fall your desires are not inclined toward God. Jonathan Edwards described this as “moral inability”. Nobody is stopping an unregenerate person from choosing God–they are simply morally incapable of making the choice. I sometimes illustrate moral incapability in this crude way. A sane mother sits in the kitchen holding her infant. She has free will. Nevertheless even though she has free will she will never choose to place her baby in the microwave. She is morally incapable of making that choice. She has free will, but her morality absolutely precludes some options that in principle she could take.

Now the observation, which I personally find amusing. In arguing Calvinism one often hears these two criticisms, sometimes from the same person. 1) If predestination is true, then we are just like robots and 2) If predestination is true, then we might as well eat, drink and be merry, i.e do whatever we want.

It doesn’t seem to occur to many that these two criticisms are exact opposites. A robot is never free to do whatever a robot wants to do. One of these criticisms might be true, but not both of them!

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If you of your own free will can choose God that means by your own free will you can not choose God. Would you agree?

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It is unfortunate that my own (and as you imply --so many others too) shallow knowledge of Calvinism is fed more by popular reactionary caricatures of it than it is by actual knowledge from Calvinists themselves. Thanks for bringing that deeper knowledge to the thread. Everything you wrote certainly rings true, even from my ‘outsiders’ perspective, such as it is.