Genocide and other moral problems with the Old Testament

Faith & Science Conversation
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Hello Cosmicscotus…

Does your moniker mean “Cosmic Supreme Court of the United States”???

Just curious.

I like your basic topic. It does come up in certain forums. That is for sure. I don’t know how “reasonable” a topic it is for an atheist to raise. Consider the havoc that truly atheistic ideologies have caused in the world over the last century or so. …

So…“NO,” our age is not “more moral” by any way, shape, or form. It’s a conceit that we humans hold at times. True of all of us.

If your issue is largely genocide… Genocide — defined as acts committed with intent to destroy, cause bodily or mental harm, deliberately inflict harm or discomfort, destroy group identity. Speakers at a biblical archaeology seminar last summer remarked that the requirements for committing genocide were difficult to acheive in the ancient time period that is being referred to by the biblical text, and it was not standard war practice in the ancient near east. Most of the time, the practice was to subjugate the conquered people groups. So what, then, do the texts really refer to? That is another discussion altogether.

We, in our era, have the tools (nuclear weapons etc) for far far worse destruction.

In our own era, the Geneva Convention allegedly limits targeting noncombatants in warfare, but makes some exceptions.

I was among a group of people touring a historic site, a few years ago, when someone mentioned a news item involving execution of a convicted murderer in another region the day before. One woman in the group spoke up and declared “the Bible says all thieves should have their hands cut off.” People were stunned. She repeated it several times and when someone inquired as to whether or not she had the right religion, the woman declared “I have been studying the Bible for 50 years and I am NOT wrong.”

Most of us are like that woman —even atheists. When it comes to slavery —remember that the modern abolitionist movement was NOT initiated by atheists. One author noted, a few years back, that Western civilization is the only civilization to have thrown off slavery twice (yes, twice!)…and both occasions were due to efforts by clergy or other religious people. Argue with the guy if you want…(it might be a good thing!).but he saw significance in the fact that it was Western civilization, not others, that were influenced that way.

Atheism is its own little world…and they have a statistical problem.

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I think my favorite dialog was this–

“Do not kneel before me.”
“You do not wish it?”
“I do not deserve it.”
– Picard and native woman

BTW, is this the line you were thinking of?

“Are you sure this is what he wants? That’s the problem with believing in a supreme being: trying to determine what he wants.”

  • Troi
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As far as God qua God, this is true.

But as Incarnate God, then this is also true.

Just another problem of mixing philosophy and scriptural theology.

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yes.

I think the response was

“But I have to do something”

Which throws up a new direction about action or inaction.

I wonder, did you ever see the Man from Uncle film where they came up with a gas that took away the human will?

Leslie Nielsen ended up as the victim whereby he literally could not do anything without being told to… the opposite of free will.

It is amazing how often film or TV programs successfully confront issues (But we had a thread about that somewhere)

Richard

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This is only the case if the only thing we have from God is commands. But we do have more; the first Word of the Ten Words – the so-called “Ten Commandments” – is a declaration:

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

This statement actually supplies information about God: being delivered from bondage is something God does – not all the time, in a physical sense, but in order to make at least some into His people.

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The early church concluded fairly quickly that to claim to own someone who had been “bought” with the blood of the Savior was effectively blasphemy. That got lost when Justinian made Christianity the official religion and all the wealthy slaveowners became “Christian”. Several popes over time decreed that slavery was not acceptable, but politics and economics made those ineffective – especially the politics of dealing with Islam since Muslims loved capturing ships from Christian ports and enslaving everyone, to which Christians retaliated by doing the same to Muslims, and after a bit of this there was an agreement that it wasn’t okay to enslave Christians or Muslims, but “barbarian” tribes outside civilization were fair game. In practice this meant black Africa, and thus was born the most vile form of slavery the world had seen.

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Ugh – no. I think it would have given me nightmares if I had!

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I think there is also moral philosophy in the Bible. For example, the Golden Rule is a perfect example of people using their own inner sense of morality.

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I fondly remember a professor for philosophy of law. He was not a Christian, but he did tell me in a side conversation that the summary of Jesus teaching was the Golden Rule. I did explain kindly the more important rule was to love God. Or in a more objective figure of speech, that it is wrong to love what is imperfect as if it was perfect.

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Complicated, no?

from pbs.org
Slavery had a long history in the ancient world and was practiced in Ancient Egypt and Greece, as well as Rome. Most slaves during the Roman Empire were foreigners and, unlike in modern times, Roman slavery was not based on race.

Slaves in Rome might include prisoners of war, sailors captured and sold by pirates, or slaves bought outside Roman territory. In hard times, it was not uncommon for desperate Roman citizens to raise money by selling their children into slavery.

Life as a slave

All slaves and their families were the property of their owners, who could sell or rent them out at any time. Their lives were harsh. Slaves were often whipped, branded or cruelly mistreated. Their ow

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I remember reading an account in Latin of a mother selling herself so her mid-teenage children could get a start in life – and how years later, successful, they bought her back.

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That’s amazing.

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en.wikipedia.org actually has a site listing and summarizing all Man from U.N.C.L.E. plots…if you want to find the episode Richard G described…be my guest and check it out…all episodes have pretty bizarre plots…

Solo and Kuryakin take on two brothers (Lloyd Bochner and Gerald Mohr) who are attempting to control the diamond market, and simultaneously attempt to thwart THRUSH attempts to steal the diamonds. Look for famous drummer Earl Palmer as a member of “The Gallants.” (Leo G. Carroll does not appear in this episode.)

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Yeah.

I wondered if there had been some agreement they could do that, or if they just kept contact with her and worked it out. It didn’t say what position/work she was given as a slave, but slaves in cities often lived better than many free people, and they may have been able to visit her.
It can be annoying only getting part of the story!

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It would be interesting to know that…she must have remained living locally to them…if she had gone far off, then contact likely would have been lost–and in those days, “far off” was not by definition as distant as that would be today.

britishmuseum.org/exhibits/nero
Enslaved people working in households mostly enjoyed a better quality of life than those working in mines or the fields, yet they too could be victims of physical and sexual abuse. Generally, they were required to perform tasks without being seen unless when serving a banquet. Here they were at their most visible, required to perform faultless service. In one letter, the philosopher Seneca describes the abuse enslaved people were subject to in elite houses:

When we recline at a banquet, one slave mops up the disgorged food, another crouches beneath the table and gathers up the left-overs of the tipsy guests. Another carves the priceless game birds […]. Hapless fellow, to live only for the purpose of cutting fat capons correctly […]. Another, who serves the wine, must dress like a woman and wrestle with his advancing years; he cannot get away from his boyhood; he is dragged back to it; and though he has already acquired a soldier’s figure, he is kept beardless by having his hair smoothed away or plucked out by the roots, and he must remain awake throughout the night, dividing his time between his master’s drunkenness and his lust; in the chamber he must be a man, at the feast a boy.

– (Seneca, Letter 47)

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It was supposedly a cult trying to end world conflict. The point being that subdjugation is not a solution just as the notion of the dictator bringing ultimate peace does not work either.

I wonder, the second coming… does that smack of ether of there scenarios?

Richard

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Roman, Dahomy, Madagascan and Nazi slavery was probably worse. American slaves were usually considered valuable assets, not disposable ones. They didn’t have to fight as gladiators, didn’t get executed as human sacrifices, didn’t get sent on forced marches without food, and weren’t deliberately worked to death or gassed.

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What country are you from?

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What difference does it make?