Joel is just doing a back of the envelope estimation as I am sure you as an engineer have done. It wasn’t an extrapolation. We called them order of magnitude calculations. Do you agree with his estimation? This is way more than a large school of squid.
I looked at Walker’s article and was not impressed. Just one example.
Have you ever had to do thermal calculations in your former life? Walker conveniently ignores that massive granite intrusions formed on dry land that can only cool by heat conduction through the surrounding rock. Heat flow through rock has been measured in the lab and the results show it does take millions of years for the granite to cool to normal temperatures. Add the fact that some of the intrusions had cooled, faulted, and then had another round of magma intrusion and the time scale really starts to stretch out. I can recommend a book that goes into the gory details if you are interested.
You know nastiness when you see it, don’t you? There are many forms.
Okay, let’s try this. How would you react if someone mocked your faith and labeled is as pagan?
I believe my statement was in the form of the question, “Why are you being nasty?” I thought you were being condescending, which is a form of nastiness, no matter how it is justified. If that was not your intention, I apologize for misunderstanding.
I am probably as surprised as you are. It was not planned. For most of my life it never crossed my mind to question evolution, nor the big bang. But neither did it cross my mind to spend time researching it. I became a Christian back in my late 20’s, but I never really looked at the scripture as a historical narrative, but as spiritual inspiration.
Anyway, about 5 or 6 years ago I resumed my studies, focusing primarily on Darwinism, Egyptology, and the historical narratives of the bible. The rest is “history”.
How was the age of the stratigraphy first determined?
I have read that, at one time, maybe in the 1950’s, astronomers were pressured to change the age of the universe, that is, the Hubble Constant, to bring the age of the universe more in line with age of the earth, as determined by radioactive dating. Have you ever read anything like that?
I believe your citation was from Wikileaks on the Rodhocetus, Lynn. Gingerich himself discredited it in the 2012 video – the one you saw.
The Ambulocetus was also questioned by Gingrich due to the location of its eyes, raised high up on top of its head, “in a very strange way,” he said. Gingrich also questioned its size, stating “It’s unusually large for an early whale.”
LOL! In my early days of engineering, when computers were much more primitive, the computer people light-heartedly labeled software bugs as “features”.
It’s not about needing to be “schooled.” It’s about verifying accuracy of a statement.
I mean, on one level it’s true: Typically, a popular-level video like this would not need exhaustive backing up of its claims within the video itself. That’s not what videos are for. But in theory it should be based on a written paper that is more extensive and, ideally, peer-reviewed. Did Berlinski produce such a longer version for scrutiny by those interested?
I would guess that when you’re reading analysis of Scripture and somebody makes a claim like this, you want to verify it for yourself, don’t you? You wouldn’t give someone like Berlinski a free pass because he’s from your favorite camp, generally agrees with you, and sounds well educated, right?
I have no doubt it was a massive school of squid. I believe some of them are also found in the Grand Canyon layers. But I have little confidence that it means anything other than a huge school of squid were quickly buried by sediment.
Thanks, but that may be too technical for me. I am seeking more of a general knowledge of “everything”, if you will. I do read technical papers from non-creation (“secular”) sources, and have many of them indexed in my library. But I typically rely on their conclusions, or general statements, and leave the details to others.
I will also examine Walker’s paper more thoroughly. I pasted the footnote only because it was addressing a similar concern (“too many fossils”).
Probably not. If you get to know him, you will understand that he is not only brilliant, but he loves to yank the chains of evolutionists, astronomers, and even “overly-zealous” mathematicians, like Hawking. I am reasonably certain that every word of that video was carefully crafted to “press the buttons” of someone.
If I am able. Otherwise, I may seek assistance.
In the case of Berlinski’s statement, everything makes perfect sense, from an anatomical perspective. It never crossed my mind there might be an inconsistency. But if I had no biology and/or medical training, it would probably be more difficult to understand. So I see your point.
I don’t think you really appreciate just how massive a school of squid you’re talking about.
You’re talking about a school of squid a hundred miles long, a hundred miles wide, and five miles deep containing two or more two-foot-long squid per cubic metre. In a part of Wyoming that is now a mile and a half above sea level.
I’d said I wasn’t going to reply in detail to your response to me, but there is one point in particular that I think you may have misunderstood here that is actually very important.
It’s not the idea of a young earth itself that kills people. What kills people is encouraging an approach to science and technology in general that endorses sloppy thinking, falsehood, unjustified assertions, or resistance to critique.
Unfortunately, young-earth “creation science” does precisely that. There are many, many YEC arguments that can be falsified simply by searching Google or performing a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation using basic school-level arithmetic. Dismissing contamination as a “rescuing device” without fully accounting for it – as is the case with the RATE team’s studies of radiocarbon in ancient coals and diamonds – would certainly kill people if you did the same thing in the pharmaceutical industry, for example. And not only do the YEC organisations do such things, but they insist on them and then attack anyone who objects to them doing so as “compromisers” or “Bible sceptics” or “anticreationists” or “speaking with the voice of the serpent.”
This sends out a signal to us as Christians that in science, sloppiness and a high tolerance for falsehood are not only acceptable but in fact expected.
As for evolution, on the other hand, this is an area where not understanding it properly can kill people. Specifically: antibiotic resistance. Farmers all round the world are pumping their livestock full of last-resort antibiotics, and because they fail to grasp that mutations can, and do, introduce new information, and that selection pressures then concentrate and multiply that information, they are actually encouraging new strains of antibiotic-resistant pathogens to evolve – and effectively rendering our best and strongest antibiotics useless.
Just take a look at this video. It will show you what I mean. It’s an experiment conducted at Harvard University in which they managed to get bacteria to evolve resistance to lethal doses of antibiotics in just eleven days:
My citation (from Wikipedia) said that the skeleton had comparable proportions to a semiaquatic Russian desman, likely swam by kicking its large, webbed hind feet one at a time while using its tail as a rudder, and that the toes of said hind feet were too long and slender to have supported its weight on land, so it would have had to use the tarsals.
In the video Gingerich said that he no longer believed that the tail had a fluke or that the front limbs were flippered. How do those statements discredit the others, please? He also said he believed Ambulocetus was a closely related side branch, but that’s no reason to remove it from any diagram of whale evolution, is it? Closely related side branches can tell us a lot.
More on ages later — gotta start shoveling out from all the snow we got last night now!
That’s a lot of squid, if calculated correctly. But let’s take a look at Joel’s logic and math:
"If that weren’t enough let’s think about these fossils a bit further. The surface of the earth is approximately 5.5 Quadrillion square feet (197 million square miles). If there were only 1 quadrillion belemnites alive in the pre-Flood oceans and the entire surface of the earth were covered with water then there would a one belemnite squid per every 5.5 square feet. That hardly leaves room for quadrillions of small fish, millions of sea reptiles, septillions of clams and other crustaceans and surely quadrillions of additional individuals of other belemnite species not to mention the quintillions of ammonites that are in the fossil record. Even this is an underestimate of the density of fossils since there were many more belemnites and the earth’s surface has always had a significant portion of dry land and so not available to ocean creatures.
Let’s try out 100 quadrillion belemnites in an Earth that is half covered with water. That would be 100 quadrillion divided by 2.25 quadrillion square feet or a total of 44.4 belemnites per square foot! Do we need to continue?" [Joel Duff, “Quadrillions, Quintillions and Beyond: The Vast Fossil Record Refutes the Flood Geology Hypothesis.” Naturalis Historia, 2016]
Do you see anything odd about his logic? One of the comment’s mentioned what appears to be a flaw:
“And the depth of the water doesn’t count for anything? Why’d you leave that out? Multiply 5.5×10^15 square feet by 12,500 feet (avg ocean depth) and you get 69 Quintillion cubic feet. So if there were 1×10^15 belemnites, that would be 69,000 cubic feet for each.”
That was quickly disputed by such “logic” as:
“And the depth of the water doesn’t count for anything?” Correct. It doesn’t count for much because you are simply taking the very limited solar energy available per square meter of the earth’s surface ( which powers biological life) and assuming that additional water depth somehow helps."
LOL! Modern squid can live in significant depths–as much as a mile, or more. Even giant squid reputedly live up to 3,000 feet. Do a calculation using a reasonable depth, say 500 feet. Also keep in mind that squid typically are found in large schools, and there were no commercial fleets in those days to over-harvest the stocks.
“More than 2 million metric tons of squid are landed throughout the world. Although almost a hundred species of squid are fished commercially, two species, the Japanese flying squid and the Argentine shortfin squid, account for over half the world harvest.”
Glad you’re here. It’s worth pointing out that these scientists had no access to the data we have today. The cosmic microwave background radiation, general and special relativity as demonstrated by the procession of Mercury’s orbit and the need to adjust clocks in GPS satellites, entangled particles, billions of galaxies; radiologically dated strata, millions of fossils showing a history, tectonic movements confirmed by satellite observations, fossils of tropical species found in Antarctica, endogenous retrovirus signatures in DNA that form a phylogenetic pattern across species… And I am just getting started.
For me, the two key factors in adopting evolutionary creation are:
in about 400 AD, the great, godly scholar Augustine carefully studied the Genesis narratives and concluded that the do not indicate a literalistic set of 24-hour days; instead, they should be treated figuratively…and that we who follow Christ should use scientific evidence to learn about natural history. Of course, they didn’t have much data back then (see paragraph above).
If It’s good enough for Augustine, It’s good enough for me.
The scientific community has a very strong community of researchers dedicated to using data to disprove error. The only uniformitarianism they have is the belief that the same physical laws apply everywhere, whether you are in Ghana, Georgia, or a galaxy 12 billion light years away.
This community contains thousands of Christian biologists and geologists who participate in the community’s research process. You don’t hear much about them because they publish in scientific journals, rather than prominent sites such as ICR and AIG.
This community (which includes thousands of Christians, as I said) has amassed and analyzed more data than could be contained in a billion sets of Encyclopedia Britannica. They are worth listening to. In fact, Christian humility requires that I listen to them.
The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of the Earth by Davis Young and Ralph Stearley
This book is more in-depth. It is discussed in a blog posting here The Bible Rocks and Time Christians and an Old Earth It covers a wide range of topics.
These squid lived in shallow water as shown by the locations where the fossils were found. Giant squid may well live in great depths but they don’t also live in shallow costal waters.
Ah, but it was a statement, wasn’t it? The presumption was that I was being nasty; you were asking why. Kind of like a “when did you stop beating your wife question,” right?
You definitely said I was being nasty.
I was pointing out a logical fallacy after your mischaracterization of OEC after your implicit criticism that “they don’t take the Bible as seriously as you do.”
No problem then.
Okay. I’m still mind-boggled by it. My perspective is that you could only come to the conclusions you have if you only looked at one side of the argument and presumed a great conspiracy by the majority if scientists.
According to Wikipedia, the Bighorn Basin is about 100 miles (160 km) wide. Judging from the map, it’s a little bit smaller than a square, so a good estimate for its area would be about 20,000 square kilometres = 20 billion square metres.
One quadrillion squid in an area of 20 billion square metres = about 50,000 squid per square metre.
50,000 squid per square metre to a depth of 500 feet = three hundred and twenty eight squid per cubic metre. Or about nine per cubic foot.
Given that each squid was about two feet long, and probably about half as wide as it is long, that sounds a bit unlikely, don’t you think? If you go for a physically possible (but still very high) figure of two squid per cubic metre, you get a depth of about 25,000 metres – that’s more than the depth of the Marianas Trench and the height of Mount Everest combined.
And bear in mind that the figure Joel quoted was a conservative estimate, and almost certainly a lower limit at best.
Yes, you are missing something. You are missing the fact that we are not talking about millions or even billions or trillions of squid, but quadrillions.
Joel’s article stated that there are at least a quadrillion squid fossils in the Bighorn Basin area alone. Yes, it did seem a bit odd that he was calculating the number of squid per unit area, but I haven’t used his calculations; I’ve done my own, and calculating the number of squid per unit volume fares no better. The bottom line is that a school of that many squid simply would not physically fit into a space that size all at once.
How do you interpret these statements by Augustine?
“They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6,000 years have yet passed.” [Philip Schaff, Augustine, City of God, “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Ser 1 Vol 02.” Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1886, Book XII.10, p.232]
“It is plain that the day then was what it now is, a space of four-and-twenty hours, determined by the lapse of day and night; the month then equal to the month now, which is defined by the rise and completion of one moon; the year then equal to the year now, which is completed by twelve lunar months, with the addition of five days and a fourth to adjust it with the course of the sun. It was a year of this length which was reckoned the six hundredth of Noah’s life, and in the second month, the twenty-seventh day of the month, the flood began,—a flood which, as is recorded, was caused by heavy rains continuing for forty days, which days had not only two hours and a little more, but four-and-twenty hours, completing a night and a day. And consequently those antediluvians lived more than 900 years, which were years as long as those which afterwards Abraham lived 175 of, and after him his son Isaac 180, and his son Jacob nearly 150, and some time after, Moses 120, and men now seventy or eighty, or not much longer, of which years it is said, ‘their strength is labor and sorrow.’” [Schaff, Philip, Augustine, The City of God, “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Ser 1 Vol 02.” Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1886, Book XV.14, p.295]
“Now, on the subject of this rest Scripture is significant, and refrains not to speak, when it tells us how at the beginning of the world, and at the time when God made heaven and earth and all things which are in them, He worked during six days, and rested on the seventh day. For it was in the power of the Almighty to make all things even in one moment of time. For He had not labored in the view that He might enjoy (a needful) rest, since indeed ‘He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created;’ but that He might signify how, after six ages of this world, in a seventh age, as on the seventh day, He will rest in His saints; inasmuch as these same saints shall rest also in Him after all the good works in which they have served Him,—which He Himself, indeed, works in them, who calls them, and instructs them, and puts away the offenses that are past, and justifies the man who previously was ungodly.” [Philip Schaff, Augustine, On the Catechising of the Uninstructed, “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Ser 1 Vol 03.” Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887, Chap 17.28, pp.301-302]
“In the creation God finished His works in six days, and rested on the seventh. The history of the world contains six periods marked by the dealings of God with men. The first period is from Adam to Noah; the second, from Noah to Abraham; the third, from Abraham to David; the fourth, from David to the captivity in Babylon; the fifth, from the captivity to the advent of lowliness of our Lord Jesus Christ; the sixth is now in progress, and will end in the coming of the exalted Saviour to judgment.” [Schaff, Philip, Augustine, Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Ser 1 Vol 04.” Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887, Book XII.8, p.185]
How do you know that was shallow water at the time the sediment was deposited? How do you know the school of squid was not washed over the land by a massive surge of water?
You are not thinking this through, Jimmy. It is a fossil graveyard. Try to imagine tides, terrain, or other forces, funneling the giant school of ocean squid into one region of the land, and burying them with the silt carried by the force of water.
