Your context was (quote): “no matter how WILD and UNBELIEVABLE the story becomes, the YEC position is that God can make it happen in just the WILD and UNBELIEVABLE way.”
Either that, or your Egyptian chronology needs some work, or, maybe both. The Greek Old Testament (the LXX), according to the ancient historian Demetrius, states the flood occurred in 3043 BC:
“Demetrius the chronographer (ca. 220BC) Demetrius was a Hellenistic Jewish historian who wrote in Alexandria during the reign of Ptolemy IV (221–205 BC). He is ‘the earliest datable Alexandrian-Jewish author we know’ (Finegan 1998, 141). Demetrius’ works are preserved in Eusebius’ Praeparatio Evangelica and Clement of Alexandria’s Stromata.He wrote in Greek (Hanson 1983, 183, n. 6) and is the earliest known witness to the Septuagint. In Demetrius’ chronological system, Creation is dated at 5307 BC and the Flood at 3043 BC (Finegan 1998, 145).” [Smith, Henry, “Methuselah’s Begetting Age in Genesis 5:25 and the Primeval Chronology of the Septuagint.” Answers in Genesis, 2017]
I’ll try not to be so dogmatic. The world-wide fossilized strata appears to discount uniformitarianism, in every way.
Again, you are assuming your chronologies are accurate. I believe they are in need of some serious updating. The LXX places the dividing of the nations 500 years after the flood:
“And the Lord scattered them thence over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city and the tower. On this account its name was called Confusion, because there the Lord confounded the languages of all the earth, and thence the Lord scattered them upon the face of all the earth.” – Gen 11:8-9 LXX
The nations were divided according to the number of angels/sons of God (about 70):
“When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.” – Deu 32:8 LXX
The Hebrew for Egypt is Mizraim, son of Ham, and brother of Canaan. His descendents founded Egypt. One Mizraim’s sons, Casluhim, was the “father” of the Philistines (Gaza).
And so forth . . .
I wasn’t there; but the Bible says that it happened, world-wide flood myths imply it happened, and the world-wide fossilized strata leaves little doubt.
I did come to terms with the flood story (in my old age). It happened like God’s Word said it happened.
I think you might be misunderstanding ‘uniformitarianism.’ It does not mean that everything in geology happened really slowly. You are actually applying the principles of uniformitarianism (how geologists actually use it) when you infer that a global flood is responsible for nearly all fossils and geological structures.
What the phrase really means is simply: the same natural laws and processes that operate in the universe now have always operated in the universe in the past and apply everywhere.
In other words, I do see many YEC geologists using events that have occurred in our lifetimes. An example would be the Mount Saint Helens volcanic eruption that is written about quite a bit. In order to use that as an inference of what kinds of things catastrophic processes can do you assume the principle of uniformitarianism. You have to use this principle if you want to argue for scientific evidence of the flood.
However, you cannot ascribe to uniformitarianism and still be a YEC because of processes like radiometric dating. It is quite clear that hundreds of millions/billions of years worth of radiometric decay has occurred and thus one of the most common arguments (besides trying to cast doubt and abusing the methods) is that the decay rates were faster in the past.
So it is a catch 22 but I wanted to point out that you do use uniformitarian principles in flood geology.
No it doesn’t.
No they don’t.
So what? Kepler also made a lot of money off of predicting the heavens via astrological practices, i.e.
Kepler drew up some 800 horoscopes (not all of them flattering) for friends and patrons. While serving as the court mathematician of Holy Roman Emperor Rudolph II, Kepler calculated the horoscopes of famous people such as Emperor Augustus Caesar and the Prophet Mohammed in order to explain why their fates developed as they did. This served as both an enjoyable and educational form of entertainment.
I wonder how we should interpret this graph describing the distribution of elements in the universe:
And Einstein was wrong (perhaps you were thinking of Fred Hoyle who was stubbornly holding on to the steady state model). If that is in fact what the Bible teaches (which it isn’t), then the Bible would be wrong too.
I have read some articles on that subject. Do you have a source for that?
I try not to get sidetracked by “boundaries”. Examine the animals normally found in each of the fossil layers, then apply that “picture” to a world-wide flood–one gradually increasing in height. Now, apply the same picture to a world-wide flood energized by massive tides, which progressively get worse as the water height increases (as more and more of the earth’s surface is covered). There is also a strong possibility of massive tidal waves immediately after the fountains of the deep opened up, which would better explain the Cambrian:
“In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” – Gen 7:11 KJV
One might expect costal marine animals to be covered by the lower water levels, then the amphibians, then the slower and/or less intelligent animals living in lower elevations. The highest order of animals would scatter to the highest hills; and if they were not eaten by other animals, would be the last to drown, and therefore the least likely to fossilize. As the continents rose, and the ocean basins sank to accomodate the extra water, the water levels dropped rapidly. The top layer animals would most likely to be swept into the ocean along with the eroded sediment, leaving them embedded in the world-wide continental shelf, or in deeper water, which explains their limited numbers in land strata.
Anyway, that is my theory, in a nutshell.
The same reasoning. Clumsy dinos lived in lower altitudes, and were covered earlier. Whales can swim.
Aligators are hardy critters which can withstand water with high concentrations of sediment. Also, ocean-going creatures did survive, with the exception of those who ventured too close to the coastlines and were swept inland and covered by powerful incoming (and muddy) tides.
Long afterward; maybe more than a thousand years. Josephus stated Abraham delivered some science skills to Egypt:
“For whereas the Egyptians were formerly addicted to different customs, and despised one another’s sacred and accustomed rites, and were very angry one with another on that account, Abram conferred with each of them, and, confuting the reasonings they made use of, every one for their own practices, demonstrated that such reasonings were vain and void of truth: whereupon he was admired by them in those conferences as a very wise man, and one of great sagacity, when he discoursed on any subject he undertook; and this not only in understanding it, but in persuading other men also to assent to him. He communicated to them arithmetic, and delivered to them the science of astronomy; for before Abram came into Egypt they were unacquainted with those parts of learning; for that science came from the Chaldeans into Egypt, and from thence to the Greeks also.” [Flavius Josephus, “The Complete Works: Antiquities of the Jews.” Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Gen 12:10, p.71]
BTW, as a new user I can only post so many replies on the first day.
I commend you, dear sir. I had no idea you would be so bold as to adhere to a dating of the Flood so soon after the Earth’s creation!
Most Creationists put the Six Days of Creation about 4,000 years before the life of the Messiah Jesus.
Answers in Genesis puts the flood at 2348 BC! That’s about 1600 years after creation.
You seem to prefer “more modern LXX manuscripts dates” for the flood at 3135 BC! This leaves
only 865 years since Adam took his first breath! So I must assume that you not only reject Science,
you also reject your fellow Creationists! - - since if Adam lived more than 930 years, he not only was
not dead at the time of Noah’s building of the Ark, he survived for more than 60 years after the Flood!
Naturally, I will assume that you will reject the 4000 BC as the date of creation. But you stand here
before us on these boards patiently trying to explain why you, amongst all your YEC peers and amongst
the cream of Earth’s science practitioners, you are the only one to correctly date not only the Flood, but
also the age of the Earth.
You write:
“… you are assuming your chronologies are accurate. I believe they are in need of some serious updating. The LXX places the dividing of the nations 500 years after the flood…”
But even with your alternate chronology, which pretty much puts the Flood even before the 1st Dynasty of Egypt, you cannot explain how the first dynasties of Egypt could have recovered so quickly from a flood that is
supposed to have wiped out all the people of Africa!
Where are the bodies? Where are the fossilized humans that would accompany all the fossilized animals that the flood left for us?
I can answer this for you. We don’t have them because most of the fossils left for us were laid down, non-uniformly or not, millions of years before there were recognizable humans.
But maybe your boldest statement is here below:
I would consider your effort to avoid being dogmatic to be a “fail”. The issue of Uniformitarianism is a notorious red herring. You are attacking the terminology, instead of the evidence. And if not the terminology, you are attacking one old version of a theory for the evidence constructed at a time when Evolutionary theories were in their infancy. Let’s stick to the patterns of evidence.
The evidence shows that there is a completely inexplicable pattern of fossils where no dinosaurs (below the K/T barrier) ever mingles with horses and cows (above the K/T barrier) … and that no other large mammals (lions, bears, giraffes, hippos, rhinos, etc.) are ever found below the K/T barrier - - and in fact, do not even appear above the K/T barrier until smaller approximate versions of these modern animals appear first!
We find no predator dinosaurs with a zebra bone in its mouth or stomach. And we find no vegetarian dinosaur lingering amidst its fellow vegetarian giraffes or wildebeasts. Nor do we even find them existing in the same strata of rock! - - as laid down in a single flood per your timeline.
This is not the logic of any known flood. The flood is the least explicable of all the events in the Old Testament… the Six Days of Creation included!
You are kidding right? Yes, Alligators are hardy. But how long do you expect them to survive when there is no bottom to go to… no land to climb up on? They are a shore creature… not an open water creature. Ocean-going creatures did survive… but only some of them. There are the fossils of hundreds of different ocean-going creatures who, by your assertion, were wiped out and fossilized because of the flood. And yet we have plenty of shore-loving creatures who exist to this day.
Your timeline is completely out of sync. How can you have the creation of the Earth dramatically earlier than 4000 BCE… and then have the flood happen long after the pyramids of Giza. I think the Egyptians would have noticed that, don’t you?
I wouldn’t want you to get strained by the issue of “boundaries” … but it is part of the real world. The K/T boundary exists all over the world.
And it is the giant fly in the ointment of your scenario. Even if there wasn’t a physical K/T boundary, you would still have the virtual boundary created by the End of all things Dinosaur (with the exception of the mini-Dinos we call birds), and the Beginning of All Things Mammalian-and-Large!
I didn’t catch the link at first, so I was wondering which of the anti-creation sites you were quoting.
Are you aware that Coe retracted?
“The case for extraordinarily rapid field change at Steens Mountain is now untenable.”, ScienceDirect, Aug 2014
This is Dr. Humphrey’s response to the retraction:
"Thanks for the question [about Coe et al. retracting]. The quick answer is that Coe et al. do not have very good experimental reasons for retracting. Just to compare the situation to something familiar, suppose Mary Schweitzer suddenly used a new and not-well-tested way to analyze dino soft material and announced that the new method shows there was no soft material, and so now she repents of her chutzpah in sackcloth and ashes? That will give you the flavor of this newest Coe article to me.
Next, notice that Michel Prévot is not one of the authors, nor is Pierre Camps. Both of those were co-authors with Coe in previous landmark papers on this topic. Coe has been under tremendous pressure to retract for the last two decades, and if he were to become accepted again within the fold, then his grad students and post-docs would not be looked at askance as they look for jobs. I think he would be enormously relieved to find a legitimate-appearing excuse to retract." [D Russell Humphreys, “Earth’s rapid magnetic field reversals.” Creation Ministries International, 2014]
It appears Coe got it TOO right! LOL!
That is why I do not take evolutionism with a large grain of salt – well, that and a gazillion other things. Real science cannot exist under such suppression by the establishment–those who have a stranglehold on tenure, the pal-review process, and who have their grubby hands in the deep pockets of the state.
It was a different world before the flood. Even the landscape was different, and all animal (and human) life had become corrupted:
“And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.” – Gen 6:12 KJV
Many theologians have pondered that statement. The most logical explanation is that the animal life (much of it) had been hybridized–the dinosaurs being extreme cases. The only animal life that survived was in the oceans and on the ark. Some of the intertestamental literature hints at the cause of the corruption. A later Hebrew manuscript, called Jasher, actually mentions hybridization, long before such practices were even considered by modern man:
“And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.” – Jsh 4:18
The other books, including the book of Genesis, indicates those “judges and rulers” were heavenly beings:
“And it came to pass when men began to be numerous upon the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God having seen the daughters of men that they were beautiful, took to themselves wives of all whom they chose.” – Gen 6:2-3 LXX
The angels/sons of God included Satan:
“And it came to pass on a certain day, that the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came among them to stand before the Lord.” – Job 2:1 LXX
But Satan didn’t corrupt himself with mankind. Those that did were cast into hell until judgement day:
“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” – Jude 1:6 KJV
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;” – 2Pet 2:4-5 KJV
Other passages from the intertestamental mention how the hybrid giant children of the angels/earthly women taught men to make weapons of war, and other evils.
I will have to research that, and maybe pay better attention.
Amen to that. It took years, but I finally got members of my church to participate in serious bible study. Before that, if you knew the church doctrine, you were “a good Christian”, and no one was gonna let some “Johnny come lately” convince them otherwise.
For the past 5 years I have been testing bible software for a friend as he was developing it. It was designed exclusively for forum and blog posting, but it turned out to also be an exceptional bible study tool.
I am really only dogmatic on one point: the Word of God rules! My interpretation, and that of others, is subordinate
I realize evolutionists change definition frequently, but that is a first for uniformitarianism. No, wait, I found this:
"Warren D. Allmon, Director of the Paleontological Research Institution in Ithaca, NY, and Adjunct Associate Professor of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at Cornell University said,
‘Lyell also sold geology some snake oil. He convinced geologists that … all past processes acted at essentially their current rates (that is, those observed in historical time). This extreme gradualism has led to numerous unfortunate consequences, including the rejection of sudden or catastrophic events in the face of positive evidence for them, for no reason other than that they were not gradual.’ (Post Gradualism, Science 262, p. 122, October 1, 1993)
“Do you see what he said? For some 150 years geologists in their professional discipline have been consistently rejecting evidence that did not agree with their anti-biblical beliefs.” [Tasman B Walker, “James Hutton and geological snake oil.” Biblical Geology, 2010]
I have this definition in my database:
“Uniformitarianism is a geological doctrine. It states that current geologic processes, occurring at the same rates observed today, in the same manner, account for all of Earth’s geological features. Thus, it assumes that geological processes are essentially unchanged today from those of the unobservable past, and that there have been no cataclysmic events in earth’s history. As present processes are thought to explain all past events, the Uniformitarian slogan is, ‘the present is the key to the past.’”
Can you assure everyone a global flood is a current geological process? If so, I will agree with your interpretation.
There is no evidence that radiometric dating is even remotely reliable. Have you ever watched this documentary?
That segment mentions some decades-old rocks that were dated to be over a million years old.
I am not aware there was anything gradual about the global flood, nor am I aware that a global flood could be a current geological process.
Is that the latest evolutionism talking point? I thought I had heard them all.
May I suggest, with suspicion? It does, after all, use the term, “Big Bang”.
No, I was thinking of Einstein. Have you read this?
“Hoyle’s model was mathematically consistent, so if Hoyle had known that Einstein had also used the equations of general relativity to support steady-state, it’s possible he could have used that as leverage in debates with other scientists. What’s more, the document provides evidence that Einstein was averse to the idea of a changing universe. He preferred to think of the universe as static—but since other astrophysicists had found proof of the universe’s expansion, the steady-state theorem would have been, to his mind, the lesser of two evils” [Allison Eck, “Einstein’s Lost Theorem, Revealed.” Nova, 2014]
Hold the accolades, for now. The Septuagint creation date is 5397 BC (+ or -), which is over 2250 years before the flood.
Yes, I have seen that chronology. It relies on the Masoretic Hebrew, as well as co-regencies to suppress the timline in the Kings era.
Perhaps you should revist my post. You read more things into it than I could possibly unscramble in any reasonable amout of time. May I suggest a reading comprehension course before tackling any future “complex” statements?
What the heck. I will attempt to unscramble your mess for you:
Point 1: You seem to prefer “more modern LXX manuscripts dates?
No. The Hebrew text used in most modern translations, from the King James forward, is dated to about 900AD, or later. The Leningrad dates to 1009AD. LXX manuscripts are much older, with the earliest complete manuscript dated about 450AD. Therefore, the timeline I referenced is from much older manuscripts, by about 500 years.
Point 2: This leaves only 865 years since Adam took his first breath!
Get a calculator that works. The LXX creation date is over 2250 years before the flood.
Point 3: So I must assume that you not only reject Science, you also reject your fellow Creationists!
You assume too much. I love science; therefore I reject evolutionism. This may sound like a cliche, but most of my closets friends are creationists.
Point 4: since if Adam lived more than 930 years, he not only was not dead at the time of Noah’s building of the Ark, he survived for more than 60 years after the Flood!
Get a second calculator that works, in case the first one breaks.
Point 5: Naturally, I will assume that you will reject the 4000 BC as the date of creation.
Naturally.
Point 6: But you stand here before us on these boards patiently trying to explain why you, amongst all your YEC peers and amongst the cream of Earth’s science practitioners, you are the only one to correctly date not only the Flood, but also the age of the Earth.
No, I would never make that claim. The most accurate timeline was most likely by the aforementioned ancient historian Demetrius. Both modern manuscripts (Greek and Hebrew) have significant scribal errors, in particular with the dates. The DSS is clearing up some of that, but unfortunately most of the early Genesis manuscripts are fragmented, or missing.
I realize all that may mean nothing to you, except maybe as a source for another gotcha or two, but others might read it.
You haven’t been paying attention. The first dynasties of Egypt were about 1,000 years after the flood. The Egyptian chronologies invented by archaeologists are an absolute mess, and useless for any biblical comparisons.
I explained it in another post.
Why did you ask, if you already know it all?
It would be helpful if you stuck to the evidence.
And your point is?
And you point is? Are you aware that most modern animal and plant groups found found with the dino fossils? You probably will not read that in National Geographic.
You don’t get around much. But while you are hanging around, get up to speed on revised Egyptian chronologies. Oh, and drop the attitude.
From the Wikipedia article on the New Age movement (bolding added to assist in skimming):
New Age is a term applied to a range of spiritual or religious beliefs and practices that developed in Western nations during the 1970s. […] Despite its highly eclectic nature, a number of beliefs commonly found within the New Age have been identified. Theologically, the New Age typically adopts a belief in a holistic form of divinity that imbues all of the universe, including human beings themselves. There is thus a strong emphasis on the spiritual authority of the self. This is accompanied by a common belief in a wide variety of semi-divine non-human entities, such as angels and masters, with whom humans can communicate, particularly through the form of channeling. Typically viewing human history as being divided into a series of distinct ages, a common New Age belief is that whereas once humanity lived in an age of great technological advancement and spiritual wisdom, it has entered a period of spiritual degeneracy, which will be remedied through the establishment of a coming Age of Aquarius, from which the milieu gets its name. There is also a strong focus on healing, particularly using forms of alternative medicine, and an emphasis on a New Age “science” that seeks to unite science and spirituality.
It might be good if you could edit the post above [post #50, I think], as you accidentally attributed to me what were actually @pevaquark’s words. (Not that I mind all that much as it looks like I would probably agree with most, if not all of the words you put into my mouth!) But in any case it would probably be good to set the record straight. You can edit your own past posts by clicking the little pencil icon at the bottom of a post you want to change.
To avoid confusion and be easier about it … just quote people by highlighting the selection in their post that you want to quote, and click on the little grey ‘quote’ box that pops up. Then it will automatically insert the correct name too.
Then you will no doubt agree with John when he tells us that the “Word of God” is a “who”, not a “what”.
From John 1: And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.
So while I do agree that the book [and our understanding of it] is important, it is nonetheless not equal to Christ himself. His living spirit needs to rule in our hearts. And it is through that Spirit that we live and understand all things, including the Bible.
How so? Are you saying there is no layer of iridium, or that it is not found all over the world, or that it does not meaningfully separate dinosaurs from large mammals? Or that you have some other explanation for it than an asteroid impact 65 million years ago?
Nice of you to learn a little bit of the history of geology, but a bit of a strawman if you will. Let’s do a little more history of geology:
Early 1800s: mostly everyone thought a global flood could account for the Earth today
But as we came to understand geological processes, a single worldwide flood began lacking explanatory power to account for lots of things we begin to find
End of 1800s: it was clear, a single global worldwide flood could not have caused the Earth’s history
Enter snake oil comment: it really wasn’t that dramatic, and young earth creationists love to quote mine… but yes indeed, catastrophic process can occur! It is misleading for flood geologists to pretend that catastrophic processes are ignored in modern geology. As a matter of fact, a better understanding of uniformitarianism was now in the works!
Please update your database to include what modern geologists actually think.
No problem. Let me elaborate a little bit but you’ll have to grant me the real definition of uniformitarianism today and not some strawman that is paraded around as making out geologists to be knuckleheads who don’t acknowledge catastrophic processes:
What they are doing is looking at modern geological processes and assuming similar laws of physics operated in the past. If you change the laws of Physics then you CANNOT look at anything in the present (even catastrophic processes) and use it to argue for your version of reality of the past.
Okay hold your horses there. Did you miss the RATE project? They concluded the obvious, there is overwhelming evidence that lots of radiometric decay has occurred. The only way to account for that is to speed it up by factors up to a billion and destroy the Earth with radiation.
Evolutionism is what now? It’s not a talking point but you are parading around scientists of the past as if what they think is true (not knowing anything compared to what we do today) is somehow authoritative. I though Kepler would be a nice one since while believing the Bible apparently as you do, he also practiced astrology and was the last of the astronomers to really do so for money.
There was a radio competition in the mid 90s to change the name, but nothing else could stick and so here we are. It is somewhat appropriate that you hold the term ‘Big Bang’ in such derision because it was originally a term of mockery of the idea coming from the leader of the Steady State theory, Fred Hoyle.
But let’s try to quickly go back to the basics of reality and science. Let’s imagine you have a scientific hypothesis. And it makes predictions about what else you should find in reality. And then you go and look and voila- your idea matches reality. Congratulations, it wasn’t falsified! But the Steady State model has some predictions of the distribution of elements in the universe and boohoo, it was falsified! That’s the point of the graph.
Well Einstein was wrong. Too bad. He was right about just about everything else though so he can still keep his Nobel Prize.
