I think there is postmodern philosophy and hard and soft versions of it and then there is “the postmodern worldview” which is just descriptive of the worldview that people (like myself) acquired as they grew up in Western, industrialized, multicultural, information-saturated, postmodern contexts. The vast majority of people don’t pick a worldview based on books they’ve read or classes they have taken; they develop one based on their experiences and the explanatory narratives they constantly hear in their social contexts. So, my postmodern worldview is also shaped by the narratives and truth claims of my Christian community. But it’s not like you can just swap out a postmodern worldview for a “Christian” one, or a “modern” one. It’s like language, it’s acquired. Even if you learn to see things from the perspective of other worldviews, or develop a new vocabulary, your native worldview “language” is still going to provide the framework from which you make sense of other perspectives.
But you will notice, they are very firm and concrete and unyielding about their solid conviction that religion is a matter we can “waffle” on. Similarly, if you tried to tell them that sexual orientation was in fact not something people could “waffle” on, but that there was in fact one right perspective (the traditional Christian one, for instance), and any deviation from that practice was in fact sinful… I doubt there would be much “tolerance” toward those perspectives, no?
Point taken; I think that I am going to stay away from the issue of orientation, but I think that most people are looking for an epistemic humility, perhaps without the realization of it.
That seems straightforward, and well-explained. Thanks.
Very true, that. The “old modernism” if we may already call it that, has no monopoly whatsoever on hardcore dogmatism. Those of more recent outlook may insist that “the only thing they are intolerant of is intolerance itself”, but one doesn’t need much exposure to social media to see that their intolerance of “that one thing” carries all the same passion and rigidity to rival any hard core religious dogmatist of old. And further more, the “one thing” turns out to be an entire panoply of “correct things” all of which are taken as important virtue-signaling markers as might reach the length of any manifesto of old.
I think this all signals, not so much that the postmodernism (of the softer world-view sort) does not so much try to disclaim absolute truth, as it does relocate it to a different (but probably overlapping) set of fundamentals. And it is the changes that generate ire between any “old guard” and up-and-coming thinkers.
This I think is well said, and personally, it is one (of many) reasons I find postmodern as a philosophical approach so disingenuous.
It is one thing for a person who affirms belief in absolute truth to arrogantly claim that their own perspective is unassailably true.
But I personally think it adds a whole new level of downright hubris, mixed with a profound lack of insight, when someone arrogantly claims their own position is unassailably true all while claiming there is no such thing as absolute truth.
You have made multiple posts about your thoughts of God, Jesus and the Spirit. So, if my understanding of them is correct, then your knowledge of the True God and His Son and Spirit are in error and a myth that your reasoning has created.
Blasphemy of God the Father.
From all that you have said in your posts, you do not accept Moses and the Prophets as Special Revelation from God. So their God who foretold the coming of Jesus is not your God. You judge, degrade, speak against Him and have not faith in Him. So that is blaspheming Him.
Blasphemy of Jesus and the Spirit.
You said, “So, recalibrating, we know that you believe in a pious literal interpretation of the Bible, including penal substitutionary atonement, which is there for anyone who needs it. I certainly don’t.
Christ’s substitutionary atonement is what the Law and the Prophets spoke of and pointed to. (As much as some don’t like my cut and paste proof texting, I will do it anyway because His thoughts are so far above mine. And besides, it is Special Revelation given to us by the Spirit of God.)
Heb 9:11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (If this is not believed or trusted in and if it is spoke against, then it is speaking evil of Christ and the Spirit.) 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance — now that he has died as a ransom ( penal substitutionary atonement ) to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself . 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: " Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me ; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, ‘Here I am — it is written about me in the scroll — I have come to do your will, O God.’" (A body was prepared for Him as a sin offering, a penal substitutionary atonement sacrifice.) 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this (to speak against or contradict all that is being said is to oppose or speak evil of the Spirit) . First he says: 16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” 17 Then he adds:“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
There isn’t a basis that we can work from if you have no confidence in God’s revelation through Moses and the Prophets and Jesus who confirmed then by agreeing with them and the apostles also agreeing with them. If I have to trust your reasoning alone of who the Father, Son and Spirit is, then we have no common ground to move forward on. You have not foretold the coming of the Christ, or anything else, you do not believe in an atoning sacrifice which is declared by the Father, Jesus and the apostles. You stand alone with your reasoning which does not agree with Father’s. If the Father does not pull back the veil that hides His activity from us we would not see more clearly what He is like, but by His kindness and favor He has done that through Moses and the Prophets and through them He pointed to Christ and Jesus acknowledge and affirmed them.
Your reasoning of following after social justice but rejecting the penal substitutionary atonement of Christ is nothing more than a works based interaction with the god you reason exists. This is of no value to the Father. If you reject the sacrifice of Christ foretold by the Prophets, you reject the true Christ.
If I understand your reasoning and belief , then you are outside of Christ and His body, you do not have the Spirit that spoke of His atoning sacrifice. You do not have the same faith as Abraham, Moses, the Prophets or the Apostles. If I have miss spoke and this is not how you believe, then set me straight.
On a side note. I must say, as many of those on this forum who have labored to prove that scripture is not the Word of God and cannot truly be trusted, the opposite affect has been produced in me. My confidence (faith) in it being special revelation and that it is beyond superior to general revelation has been so deeply and firmly established in me. One of the greatest things that I have received is that, the God who foretold the coming of Christ is to fully be trusted and He is the God of Moses and the Prophets and spoke through them.
None, thank God.
So, saying that God is NOT an inadequate arbitrary pathologically self righteous sadist is blasphemous?
Rejecting and speaking evil of the God of Abraham, Moses, the Prophets and the Apostles and the Father of Jesus who offered Himself up as our atoning sacrifice, is blasphemous.
Special Revelation compared to Natural Revelation is like gold is to pig manure. Our trust and hope can be confidently placed in Special Revelation, for it is from the Father directly from Heaven.
Isa 46:8 "Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
This is Daniel’s pray before he went to king Nebuchadnezzar to tell him what his dream was.
Dan 2:20"Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are his. 21 He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them . He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning. 22 He reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with him. 23 I thank and praise you, O God of my fathers: You have given me wisdom and power, you have made known to me what we asked of you, you have made known to us the dream of the king.”
God is intimately involved in the affairs of man. He orders things according to His will, who can oppose Him? He foretold the coming of Jesus from Genesis to Malichi. This is the God with whom we must deal with. But what is man that God is even mindful of him, we are but dust. If the Lord does not show us mercy we will die in our sins. But mercy is given to those who repent, turn from their vain reasoning and thoughts and turn to the God of Abraham, the Father of our Savior, Jesus.
The same God who executed righteous judgment on the nations and individuals from Genesis on, is the same God we will be evaluated by and judged in righteousness by. So as the apostle said, 2 Cor 5:9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.
John the Baptist said, Luke 3:16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." 18 And with many other words John exhorted the people and preached the good news to them. (This is the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven.)
Matt 13:37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
There are so many times that Jesus and the Apostles proclaimed a day of judgment for all, those that belong to Christ through faith, love and obedience (as these three cannot be separated) will be safe and those who don’t will be thrown out of His kingdom.
Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our "God is a consuming fire."
I will take Special Revelation over Natural every time.
Psalm 19
1The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice[b] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
Pig manure? The truth is, you are never forced to choose one over the other, as both are true.
i have to agree with @Phil, to the extent that I don’t think that is a choice that God puts on us. That is a bit like saying I would choose the Gospel of John over the book of Isaiah, or choose a Romans 8 over Romans 4, or I would choose Christ over the Holy Spirit… if forced, I suppose that is the choice I would make, but God has not set up the universe such that we need or ought make such choices.
Maybe a pour choice of words to use for some to understand my point. Pig manure meaning, my very limited understanding of the things I observe with my senses and conclude with my reason alone.
Yes the creation shows us that God is intelligent and full of wisdom and power, for it took that to create everything. That is why mankind is without excuse when he declares there is no God or turns the creature into his god.
Special Revelation though is when God pulls back the vale that blinds our senses and understanding, and by His Word and Spirit He reveals to us who He is and what He has done and will do.
1 Cor 2:9
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.”
Through Special Revelation we are able to know God intimately in a way that our senses and mind would never be able to conceive on their own.
I think we agree with that, but I don’t think that is what is in question.
Speaking evil how? Saying He is not God the Killer, that He didn’t require a human sacrifice to propitiate His psychotic wrath, that He is not directly responsible for the horrors of the Bible, that He will not kill billions at His return, that black is not white, that evil is not good, that hate is not love, is blasphemous how?
Yet even in those very Scriptures, if we did not have access to “general (natural) revelation“, those words would be practically meaningless to us.
What is an eye? What is an ear? What is a mind? What does “ancient times” mean? Even all those words and concepts, we grasp and understand largely if not exclusively from general revelation. If we had been disembodied spirits never having had any perception of a physical world, living with nothing but the “special revelation” words of Scripture directly infused into us by the Spirit, we wouldn’t even be able to make sense of anything Scripture said.
So I’m almost scared to ask, but on what grounds do you believe these beliefs of yours about God to be, in fact, true?
Ill ask the same question as Daniel_Fisher. On what grounds do you believe these beliefs of yours about God to be true?
What, that He’s good? That He doesn’t murder, slaughter and assassinate people and tell us to do the same? Although we’re amateurs compared with Him. And then tortures them - us, but not you chosen few - forever in a concentration camp or just burns them - us - alive in lava after waking them - us, including most of your loved ones - up from death? Just in case they had a peaceful one? You tell me. You tell me that sick nightmare is what love looks like for you.
This is, in my opinion, a very dangerous attitude. Both are from God. They should be on equal footing. Special revelation itself attests to the value of natural (or general), stating that it is powerful enough to leave you without excuse. Have you ever contemplated what it means to be “without excuse?” I can’t parse this Romans 1 passage without concluding that it must be the case, or at least the possibility, that the knowledge of creation can be, at times, sufficient for salvation. It is because of those two words at the end of v20: without excuse . I’d like to illustrate this with a short play.
I will draw upon that most sophisticated, theological, and epistemological allegory ever devised by man: that’s right, you guessed it: it’s St. Peter at the Pearly Gates.
Let’s suppose two men, (let’s call them Tom and Jerry ) neither of whom ever heard the gospel or had access to scripture, are in line at the gates. Tom is first:
St. Peter: Hello Tom. I’m sorry, but only the saved pass through the gates.
Tom: But, but, I never heard the gospel! I never had access to scripture! That’s not fair!
St: Peter: You had your whole life to find God through His creation. You are without excuse!
Tom: But…
St. Peter: You go to hell!
St. Peter: Hello Jerry. I’m sorry, but only the saved pass through the gates.
Jerry: But, but, I never heard the gospel! I never had access to scripture! That’s not fair!
St: Peter: You had your whole life to find God through His creation. You are with …
Jerry: (Interrupting) But I did find God, I did believe in God through the beauty and complexity of creation! I was a scientist and with every discovery I saw God’s handiwork more clearly!
St. Peter: (Checking the “Oracle” Database) Um, right. So you did. Most unusual. My bad. Still, you go to hell!
La fin
There is no point, that I can discern, of telling Tom he is “without excuse”, if Tom and Jerry suffer the same fate.