There’s no record of people committing themselves to the point of martyrdom to other imaginative possibilities as they have to Resurrection. The earliest example of such commitment being found, of course, in the dramatic post-crucifixion turn-around of the Apostles. Such an astounding change of heart, followed by an unwavering commitment capable of altering human history demands a categorically unique explanation: Resurrection.
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Yes, but haven’t there, after all, been martyrs to made-up movements (Jim Jones, for example), in the past–can’t any group attract that, especially if the purpose is considered virtuous? Even a rebellion or a patriotic movement attracts maryrs. I do believe in the Resurrection, but the martyrdom does not feel strong enough for me to make that a case.
I’d be interested in your further thoughts.
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That is very kind of you.
I will not go into “the evidence” here unless Marvin (the moderator) gives me permission.
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That movement ended with the mass murder-suicide though.
Its not just the martyrdom… the Apostles had no desire to die but were putting their lives at risk for what they believed. It changed history and if that is not enough evidence, the Holy Spirit is. He has changed my life, and opened up my understanding of Scripture.
What other empirical evidence could there be for something that happened 2,000 years ago? It can only come down to faith.
In my late teens, I deconstructed the faith that I was given by my parents and was an atheist for a season, about 3 years – 1 year for each day Jesus was in the grave – and then I rebuilt my faith. Not based on what the church taught or what anyone else says, but by His Spirit and digging into the Word itself for understanding and He reconciles all things.
The evidence is the change (resurrection to new life) you see in people. They were one way before and are now another way. My marriage was miraculously healed (abstract). My daughters back injury was miraculously healed (physical)… she was up at the front of the church praying and felt this warm feeling spread throughout her body. I see evidence, the change in her and her great faith.
Thanks for the suggestions, Kendel.
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- Dark Winds, Season 3. Joe Leaphorn says: “You know, there are things that I’ve lost in life that were taken from me. And there are things that I’ve lost because of the choices I made.'‘
- I intentionally and without fear dismiss the claims of those who have chosen to disbelieve in the life, crucifixion, entombment, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus of Nazareth.
- Don’t like it? Sue me.
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I get the impression you have been given carte blanche on this thread.
The point here being that you are relying on scientism not faith and have allowed your need for physical manifestation to cancel whatever faith you had. No one is denying your original sincerity, but it seems that sincerity was not enough for you.
One lady I knew lost her faith because of the death of a loved one, for whom she had prayed for recovery and it had not happened.
Scripture says “Do not put the Lord your God to the test”. I am sorry but , even without your explanations it would seem that you are doing just that. You want God to prove Himself to you. That is not faith.
The title of this thread is a little cruel but almost certainly apt.
So feel free to bounce around your experiences, We will believe you, Unfortunately you seem unable to reciprocate. Second hand proofs are never enough. You will have seen two people just dismiss an experience of mine as “pilot error”. That is a quick way to cause offence. Christians do not like to be told that their experiences are delusional and unreal. I think you can understand why.
Richard
I have no choice to exercise. Never did. I envy those who do.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a God who wasn’t there,
He wasn’t there again today,
I wish, I wish He’d come and stay.
(with apologies to William Hughes Mearns’ Antigonish)
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You and Gary_M are impressive witnesses for the ‘I was forced’ excuse. Somewhere in my life though, I learned that evidence can lean hard; but it can’t pull the trigger.
I’m only one of the moderators around here. And you don’t need my permission for anything … plow ahead. Your only immediate risk - other users flag some comments if they get too tiresome or repetitive. It happens. Moderators usually only step in (with moderation hats on) for clean up after the fact. And a lot of us are here more often as participants than moderators.
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Occam’s razor doesn’t answer every inquiry.
Its a valuable tool , but it has limits .
A universal example:
the contents of a dream - we all dream , we all know we dream , we know dreams occur in our minds , we can test the physical aspects and identify the brain activity of dreaming .
However, we cannot verify the content of a dream , the perceived events . Be it pleasurable or nightmare , we cannot prove the scenario played out in the mind .
How can an individual prove they dreamed about their mother or their childhood dog ? That they were falling or floating ?
… I would suggest that humanity, as a whole , has had a tendency towards faith based concepts that dont particularly serve our survival…perhaps its not coincidence, but something unavoidable , perhaps even necessary.
As far as your personal experiences and beliefs or lack thereof… I hope you find what youre looking for . If not … um …err… “ get well soon ?” I guess … 
- By the way, in Where is the Story of the Woman Caught in Adultery really from? On 26 June 2013 By Daniel B. Wallace, Wallace/Hughes show the adultery story is likely early Jesus tradition, just not Johannine in origin. That’s a manuscript-location issue, not a faith-destroyer—certainly not a defeater for the resurrection.
Notes:
- Not Johannine, but likely early: The PA in John (7:53–8:11) is probably not from the hand of John, yet it reflects earlier Jesus tradition rather than a late medieval invention. Daniel B. Wallace
- Conflation of two earlier stories: Following Bart Ehrman, Hughes argues the PA in John is a conflation of two older accounts (Papias/Didascalia; Didymus/Gospel of the Hebrews). Daniel B. Wallace
- “PA East” looks Lukan: The portion Hughes calls “PA East” (John 8:2–7a, 10–11) matches Lukan special material (L-source) in style, form, and content—so closely that it “almost surely” belonged to an original L source. Daniel B. Wallace
- Plausible single line of transmission: Given a shared Syro-Palestinian provenance, it’s plausible the story moved from L material → Didascalia before later conflation and insertion. Daniel B. Wallace
- Historical core affirmed: If “PA East” belongs to Luke’s L-source, we can “affirm the essential historicity” of the event as preserved in the Didascalia, since that places it mid–first century. Daniel B. Wallace
- Why it isn’t in Luke/why it ends up in John: Luke need not have included every story he knew; the non-conflated form is “a bit of a bore” compared to the later version. The story likely circulated orally, was conflated, and then inserted into John; for the insertion dynamics, see Chris Keith’s work.
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You lack empathy mate.
Which is most surprising. Of you as an individual. And therefore not. Ah hah! Nobody forced me into incoherent, unwarranted, unjustified, untrue belief and nobody held a gun to my head when it stopped. When I couldn’t reconstruct Humpty from the final fall. Which happened in an instant. After 25 years of taking on untruth. Another 25 of mellowing with the mellowing untruth. You’ve suffered, but you toughed it out. Good for you. It’s not prescriptive. If you can do it, anybody can. No they can’t. I . can . not . decide . what . I . know. I can’t unknow it.
Anytime They like, Love can show themselves. In fact, if They were there, were the ground of infinite, eternal being, they always would have. The fact that They never have, not even in Christ, especially not; a best case, interpolated Christ, not in the text, above all not, means that They are not. No matter how good a Christ we make up, it’s too late. For me.
I’m glad it’s not for you, but the fact that you can’t transfer anything but blame, is all part of the impossibility of reconstruction.
What a shame.
As for the desperate attempt to make the PA, the most emotionally intelligent story in the NT, ‘early’. It’s part of the too late.
He was there. He is always there.
It is you not letting Him in, not Him staying away.
It is you who wants the physical manifestation, and to “see” Him
It is you who has decided that He is not here, there and everywhere.
You blame Him for not meeting your criteria of existence.
You may find, if you review your life, that He was there all the time, as you requested. But that would mean you taking off the blinkers that you wear.
Richard
You can’t see them because you are blind.
Part 1: Background: I grew up fundamentalist Baptist; born-again at age 9 and then baptized; attended an evangelical megachurch in my late teens and early twenties; became mainline Lutheran in my late twenties; a conservative Lutheran in my mid forties.
As a Christian, I believed that the Bible is God’s inerrant Word. There could be mistakes in the translations, but not in the original Hebrew and Greek. God promised to preserve his Word forever, every jot and tittle.
The Baptist-pastor-turned-atheist that I encountered online told me he would not debate me any further (I was trying to win him back to his Lord and Savior) unless I read a couple of books by NT scholar Bart Ehrman. So, in order to continue the discussion, I started reading Ehrman*'s Misquoting Jesus*. I was shocked. I was shocked to see that there were thousands of scribal alterations in the original Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. The overwhelming majority are absolutely insignificant. But some are very significant! The long ending of Mark was a scribal addition. It was not in the original. The story of the Woman Caught in Adultery was a scribal addition. It was not in the original Gospel of John. The story of the Angel Stirring the Waters at the Pool of Bethesda was a scribal addition. It was not in the original. And most devastating of all, the Johannine Commae. The only passage in the entire Bible which explicitly spells out the Trinity is a scribal alteration of the original text! “Why did God allow this to happen?” I asked myself. I didn’t lose my faith when I finished reading Ehrman’s book, but my faith in the reliability of the Bible had been shaken.
I went to my LCMS Lutheran pastor for reassurance and guidance. He was a brilliant man with a doctorate in theology, but was more of a moderate than a conservative. He told me, “Gary, Gary. Only (ignorant, silly) Biblicists (fundamentalists) hold the Bible to that standard of inerrancy. When God said he would preserve his Word what he meant was that he would preserve the message of the Gospel. God has preserved the message, just not every jot and tittle.”
Ok, ok, I thought to myself. God preserved the message. It doesn’t matter if there are some scribal additions and alterations. The message of the Gospel is still there! Great! I can be a moderate Christian and maintain my faith.
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Once that bubble was burst, the only way is down.
You had your foundations swept from under you.
As I have said before, Scripture is the basis of faith, not the foundations. You need to internalise what the faith is instead of relying on the Bible to tell you. If you can /could do that then the loss of the inerrancy doctrine is less significant.
I see now why you question the Bible so much and demand that it be proven.
Inerrancy is lazy Christianity. You do not have to think or reason, just read and regurgitate. Once one part is disputed , in the way you understand it, the rest unravels like a knitted jumper.
We end up at the “pick and choose” accusation, and then things really go pear shaped.
Richard
Apistos, it’s curious to call a careful reading of the textual evidence “desperate.”
The work of Wallace, Ehrman, and Hughes wasn’t a salvage operation; it’s historical method doing its job. You call it “too late.” “Too late” is a strange phrase to use about a text still being copied, studied, and believed two millennia on. If that’s lateness, eternity must move faster than I thought.
I’m not offended by much, but I take exception to the charge that I lack empathy.
My father and stepmother were both deaf their entire lives; my adoptive mother was deafened as a teenager, after once having had a voice like a songbird; three of her siblings were blind and had their eyes removed in childhood.
I’ve lived my whole life in the presence of people who navigated silence and darkness with courage. I understand what it is to lose, to adapt, and to live without the senses others take for granted.
Gary_M mourns the involuntary loss of his faith, after being bewitched by the website of a Baptist pastor turned atheist. You, by your own public confession, had your faith stolen from you because why? Because you had “a false axiom.” Gee! I didn’t realize that you were a Young Earth Creationist too. My condolences.
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Thank you for sharing this first part of your story. I can absolutely see how this would have been crippling to your faith.
I’ll confess I never knew the Johannine comma existed. In fact, when you mentioned a scripture that demonstrated the trinity outright I was surprised, as I had always thought it was inferred. It must be all the translations I used omitted it, or perhaps I didn’t spend much time in 1 John. I did look at my go to translations though, and it isn’t there. I had always understood the trinity to be implied in scripture, not explicitly stated.
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Hello Apistos,
I know many of us, even Christians struggle with the divine presence and how often we get to expierence that and those who desperately seek that Love. I grieve with you that you didn’t expierence the Love that you were so desperately seeking. Rather to necessarily put any blame on you, I rather openly lament how much Christians must have failed you on this mark.
I personally believe that one of the strongest witness to the divine Love is the witness of Christians themselves. If Christians are called to be royal image bearers, reflecting the divine Love, then its clear from your story and other’s stories, how much we have failed to truly reflecting that Love. While anyone can reject that Love that which Christians express, how would you have any means to ponder that source of Christian love if Christians aren’t expressing that. So many people turn away from God because of the horrendous, anti-Christ. anti-Love practices so many Christians are happy to commit. Christians aren’t gonna be perfect in our reflection of the divine Love, but we have been so off track, especially in America that so many people want nothing to do with God and Christianity.
While seeing the divine Love has been difficult in many sects of Christianity ( and honestly, the world at large) (Sorry Christians, the prolbem of evil isnt going away anytime soon), I have found a few oasis where I am encourage by their imperfect but committed attitudes to reflecting the divine Love. They keep me tethered in hope for a better way to reflect that divine Love.Maybe you will see one day a reflection of the divine Love in a Christian community that makes you ponder about that Love again. But I respect the feeling of it being “too late”
I wish you well Apistos and I appreciate the reminder you have given me today.
-Liam
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