I once did the ‘math’; the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is a second order partial differential equation. You can see it. Gave me a Stendhal’s moment.
That’s way too simple.
“If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don’t understand quantum mechanics” and “I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.” —Richard Feynman
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is expressed by a number of different mathematical expressions – most often as an inequality giving the lower limits for a product of two intervals, errors, or standard deviations. It is also expressed as a commutator or an anti-commutator of two measurement operators. What is the second order partial differential equation which you had in mind?
Quantum mechanics involves everything in the physical universe, and all the evidence points to thinking consisting of physical events.
Also incorrect. Quantum physics demonstrates that physical determinism is invalid and it is rather difficult to see how free will is possible in a time-ordered deterministic universe. Furthermore, if free will does exist then events without cause is exactly what you would expect to see in a worldview which restricts itself to time-ordered causality. Therefore it most certainly does have something to do with free will, which is not the same as saying it is sufficient to either explain or prove the existence of free will.
Dunno. It was nearly 30 years ago when I was getting in to calculus and it was an exercise in a text that I worked through. As you demonstrate, it’s in the ‘math’, independent of measurement.
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and all the evidence points to thinking consisting of physical events.
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If we know that “thinking consists of physical events,” then we should be able to determine how quantum physics effects these events and how we think. My understanding is that we do not know how we think, we do not know what these physical events are, and thus cannot say with any confidence how or if quantum mechanics affects thinking.
Are you saying that humans do Not live in a time-ordered universe?
Are you saying that Quantum Mechanics creates things without cause? such as what? Why is this necessary for free will? What is your definition of free will?
That is a gaps argument from ignorance. It does not follow that just because we do not know something that we therefore cannot explain or discover it in the future. We know a great deal about how we think and it is measurable.
No. I am saying that free will cannot be accounted for in a world-view restricted to time-ordered causality. In such a world-view, free-will and making choices would be nothing more than lies we tell ourselves.
Quantum physics has conclusively demonstrated that there are events without pre-existing hidden variables determining their outcome. Look up the testing of Bell’s inequality.
Because in a universe with absolute deterministic time-ordered causality there is no freedom for events to occur any other way than they way they do.
Someone has free will if they make choices which they could have made differently (with the external circumstances exactly the same), and thus what they have chosen comes entirely from them and cannot be traced to external causes. You might notice that crucial to this is a boundary between self and non-self.
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I am saying is that one should not make a claim based on something that we so not understand. If we know how thinking works then we can show how quantum makes free will possible. That is the basis of the argument, not broad statements that cannot be substantiated.
When I decide to not as sugar to my coffee I am making a free will decision, and this decision has nothing to do with quantum physics. But it does have something to do with the desire to cut down the amount of refined sugar in my diet. Does this mean that this decision in your view is traced to an “external” cause.
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We do live in a timer-ordered world, but our minds are able to reexamine our situation after the fact to see if we could have acted otherwise, so we could act differently next time, or take remedial action if needed
I think that the situati9on is this. In quantum physics we cannot explain exactly why certain things happen, but not that events take place out of nothing. It is true that particles may go in and out of existence, but they are not events, but things.
The mind creates free will. The mind is not the body. The mind is rational, in that it thinks. The body is physical in that it exists and works. The mind has free will because it can compare and contract and make choices. The body cannot.
Relates you are either ignoring what I said or have no comprehension of it.
Never said otherwise. QM doesn’t have to have anything to do with your decisions in order for it to have something to do with free will.
You are tracing the decision to things inside of yourself. The question is whether these things inside yourself are themselves traceable to things outside yourself as they would be in a time-ordered deterministic universe.
We live in a world with a temporal ordering, yes. But this doesn’t mean that the world is restricted to a time-ordered causality and in fact QM conclusively demonstrates that the world is either indeterminsitic or some causes are not restricted to this temporal ordering.
Sounds like you are imagining hidden variables, but QM has conclusively demonstrated that such cannot exist within the premises of a worldview restricted to time-ordered causality. Like I said, look up the tests of Bell’s inequality.
Unrelated issues… but…
The life process creates free will and the mind is a living organism. The mind is not the body – it only depends on the body just as the body depends on many other things. But no the mind is not exclusively or even inherently rational. Rationality is a skill which the mind learns to employ. The body can and does compare and make choices all the time. The difference is only the medium. While the body is a life process making choices in the medium of chemical reactions/information, the mind is a life process making choices in the medium of linguistic connections/information.
I am not imagining anything. You are talking about entanglement. What I said is we do not explain it, which does Not mean that there must be hidden variables. Just that something is going on in the quantum world that is strange to us.
It also does not have anything with free will. Entanglement only affects the quantum world, so it does not affect our thinking or our will.
It is very true that life creates free will and the mind is a living organism. It is this way too that the mind is rational and not physical. All living creatures are rational in that they are free to interact with their environment, but not fully rational as humans can be.
Rationality is an ability. Some are more skillful than others.
“While the body is a life process making choices in the medium of chemical reactions/information, the mind is a life process making choices in the medium of linguistic connections/information.”
The mind is the rational aspect of the body and includes the whole nervous system.
This sounds as if you are questioning the who concept of knowledge and choice?!
No, it is not about entanglement. That is just a situation where we can test whether there are hidden variables or not. And the tests show that there are none. But it applies to everything because the world is a quantum world and you cannot separate it from anything because of chaotic dynamics. All it takes is more than two things in the universe to make the mathematics governing them completely nonlinear where the determination of events requires initial conditions to an infinite precision, thus amplifying the effects of quantum indeterminacy to the macroscopic. After all this is exactly what happens whenever we make quantum measurements and it absurd to think such things only happen in a laboratory. It happens everywhere, all the time, which is why almost nothing in the world is ultimately predictable in the long run.
It is only strange to the scientists who expect everything to have a cause in pre-existing conditions. That was never the expectation of non-scientists who don’t see any such thing in everyday life.
Incorrect. It has everything to do with free will because free will is impossible in a deterministic world.
Incorrect. Entanglement is exactly what makes quantum effects macroscopic.
And I repeat…The mind is not inherently rational. Nor is the physical non-rational – quite the contrary. Science only works because the physical is very much rational. AND… rationality does not the require minds at all. All it requires is rules and the physical has plenty of rules so we can make machines that even exceed the human mind in rationality to point of beating us at all our own games.
Again… the only difference is the means by which information is encoded. The body does it with chemistry. Our computers do it with electronic on-off states. And our mind uses human language. There is nothing nonphysical (outside the operation of physical laws) about any of these. There is only this confusion coming from multiple meanings of the word “physical” where it is used for bodily (not mental) as well as for the laws of physics and nature. But we should not confuse such artifacts of language with reality itself.
No the nervous system is just chemistry and it is part of the body. Its design and function is determined by evolution which stores learned information in DNA and RNA molecules. The mind is an organization of human language concepts and ideas which uses the nervous system but none of that information is stored in DNA but in the medium of human communication media such as oral traditions and books.
Huh? The question is whether everything we do is just the end of a line of dominoes that started outside of ourselves in which case there is no free will involved. But quantum physics demonstrates that this is not the case because it shows there are first causes everywhere all the time altering the course of all events – fingers pushing every single one of the dominoes and thus changing the outcome constantly. This includes first causes happening inside of us so that the causes of our thoughts, choices, and actions cannot be traced completely to events outside of ourselves. Thus to say that quantum physics has nothing to do with free will is complete nonsense.
If that is true, then there must be some verifiable evidence of it. As far as I know , as far as I have read there is no evidence that quantum physics has made any significant change in Reality. That which is true must have more evidence to back it up than what I think.
Evidence that there are no hidden variables? check.
Evidence that nearly all things are governed by non-linear equations? check.
Evidence that non-linear equation require a specification of initial conditions to an infinite degree of precision in order to determine the outcome? check.
Evidence that physical processes are ultimately unpredictable? check.
What other evidence do you expect and are looking for? How is this different than creationists whining about evidence that no scientists would ever expect like horses changing into giraffes in front of their eyes? All the evidence we would rationally expect is everywhere around us just like in the case of evolution. The evidence for chaotic dynamics is even less isolated than evolution because this basic mathematics operates in everything, thus it came from all the sciences simultaneously.
“Evidence that nearly all things are governed by non-linear equations? check.”
Every action creates an equal and opposite reaction. This is the most basic physical law, and it is most linear and determinative. Has this law been changed? How has QM changed it?
It seems to me that you have this turned around. Evolution says that all species have a common ancestor, so there was only one beginning of fauna and is much evidence to indicate how different species are related.
I pointed out before in this discussion or a related one that evolution has two distinct aspects, Variation and Natural Selection, which work together to create one natural process. Variation involves genes and randomicity to make possible change. QC could play a role in this, but interestingly enough God created sex which is the primary engine beyond Variation, not QM.
The other aspect, Natural Selection, is the determi9native aspect of evolution, which allows for free will. One cannot not have free will, without real choice and the determinative aspect of evolution gives us real choices. We must make real choices if humanity is going to survive and thrive in the face of climate change and all that entails today. If you have not read by essay, God and Freedom on Academia.edu
For some reason you have decided that Reality is physical, when it is more than physical. Reality is physical, rational, and spiritual, or body, mind, and spirit. This how we get choice and free will. Of course if Reality has only one aspect, we have only one choice and no free will. Dualism is little better, triunity gives us all the flexibility that we need for freedom and meaningful choice.
Where does one learn about chaotic dynamics, which appears to be a contradiction in terms.
Quantum physics has nothing to do with this part. This is regular old Newtonian mechanics. It is linear as long as there are only two interacting bodies but once you add a third to the system, the equations governing them are non-linear. Look up up the three body problem.
But the result is that predicting any system with more than two bodies can require the specification of initial conditions to an infinite degree of precision. Then THAT is where quantum physics comes in – because in the real world, which is a quantum world, there is no infinite precision because you run smack into quantum indeterminacy that way.
Sexual reproduction is certainly an example of living organisms intentionally developing means of introducing more limited/controlled variation into their genome. But you cannot exclude QM from this any more than you can exclude it from anything else. If anything this becomes a possible doorway through which God can play a role with fingers on all the dominoes. Of course, QM doesn’t establish either free will OR divine intervention but it opens the door to the possibility of both of these things. In a deterministic world you can only have a Deist God and characters in book with no free will.
Not in a deterministic world without QM it doesn’t.
Incorrect. I have decided no such thing. I just don’t go with the old pagan explanations of where the nonphysical aspect of reality is to be found – confusing the mind with the spirit. And I don’t think this agrees with the findings of scientific inquiry into the human mind either.
Happy to hear you have found something that works for your presumptions. It does not follow that this will work for others who do not accept your premises.
I read an article over the weekend (no current sports to watch!) that is relevant here: Jurgen Habermas, “Freedom and Determinism” in his book of collected essays, Between Naturalism and Religion. For lots of philosophers trained in the analytic tradition (like I was), this is a very different tradition of philosophizing. But I think the resources of analytic philosophy have been exhausted on this topic, and it might be worthwhile looking elsewhere.
Habermas posits an epistemological dualism – not a metaphysical dualism (of mind and matter); he is agnostic on that. We have developed different ways of understanding reality, and it is not helpful to try to reduce the folk psychological terms to purely scientific ones. He also grounds this in cognitive science and humans’ ability (uniquely among all species) for joint attention and intentionality.
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To be sure there are lots of different ways of looking at things. But does this mean you just ignore the ways which don’t agree with what you want to believe? My point is that if looking at the world through the lens of time-ordered causality supported determinism and allowed no way for there to be any kind of divine involvement or free will, then I don’t think that just looking at things from a different perspective is going to solve the problem. We would be left with magical negations of natural law as our only resort to believe in the God of theism and free will. And that is not something most scientists are willing to do.
Interesting stuff. “Folk” terms vs. scientific ones sounds like he’s using Wittgenstein’s philosophy of language games. That plus joint attention and intentionality (which, along with empathy, can be termed “intersubjectivity”) highlight the connection between language and moral development in evolution. Are you finally coming around to my way of seeing things? haha.
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I am happy that I have found the way to reconcile free will with determinism as found in my essay God and Freedom on Academia.edu.
I would say we need to talk about the mind and the spirit.
And what would you say to those who are happy to have found a way to reconcile Christianity with atheism or with materialism?
I only believe in God and Christianity because science has been forced to discard physical determinism.