Free Will And Predestination

The future is utterly indeterminate. It hasn’t happened. It’s not real. It doesn’t worry God in the slightest. He’s seen it all before. And it always works out OK. Because He’s competent. Omniscience is meaningless due to the relativity of simultaneity and quantum uncertainty and chaos in between. God needs no plan, needs no insane calculus of probabilities. Freedom and freewill are irrelevant, whatever they are, aspects of the chains of helpless privilege. They have no influence on transcendent outcome. All that unsettles is the self righteous, the judgementally certain. The Bible believing. In stuff we made up.

Like an infinite past, it’s utterly indeterminate as the observable world proceeds to infinity.

What infinite past? :wink:

I’m unsure of whether tenseless time had a beginning. A couple years ago someone said that my view of time was closer to that Craig’s view of eternity. I took it as a compliment.

The immediate effect of an uncaused would appear to come from nothing, so the occurrence of the universe would appear to come from nothing or tenseless time and objectless space.

That sounds like an oxymoron to me. You’ve probably seen me opine that I like the suggestion that QM might be hinting that the fundamental reality of the universe is information.

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So you do believe in predestination?

Ah, tenseless time is another name for the B theory of time… which I don’t subscribe to. That God is omnitemporal isn’t too far from it, but neither am I claiming that we can get our heads around it, speaking of agnostic theology. ; - ) Oops, I meant skeptical theism.

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It would appear to come from nothing, whether it does or doesn’t :sunglasses:

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In the sense that Romans 8 tells. Foreknowing => Gods decision to save (before things happen) => saving through the work of the Holy Spirit.

This interpretation is based on the assumption that God knows what will or is likely to happen in our life even before we are born.
Another assumption is that we cannot be saved without the work of the Holy Spirit in our life. We can pray that God saves us but we cannot save ourselves.

This lifts up the question of time: is God restricted by time in the sense that He can only predict what happens in the future? Or is He outside of time in the sense that He can see everything between the beginning and the end simultaneously?

I think that God is, in the sense that He sees and is present simultaneously at the beginning, in the middle and at the end of our life. God is timeless in the sense that He is not bound by time.

Knowing what happens does not mean that we do not have some amount of free will. We may well have free will, God just knows what we will decide before we make the decision.

The problem of predicting the future is that the potential future branches rapidly to a probability cloud. When there are trillions and trillions of potential paths, the probability of a single path becomes very small. Predicting the future is more difficult than predicting the local weather fifty years from now.

If God is bound by time, the only way to have an accurate knowledge of what happens in the future will be to actively guide the decisions of individuals by blocking unwanted paths and pushing towards a particular path. That would need a huge amount of micromanagement - guiding the paths of eight billion humans and trillions of other animals simultaneously…

Interesting. I think you are expressing what may also have been C.S. Lewis’s view. The open theist would say that because of God’s limitless intelligence, it is no more “difficult” for God to keep in his mind a huge future branching probability cloud than it would be for him to think of a “single” future outcome. And that God is thus prepared (like a brilliant superhuman chess-master) to react to every possible move that could be made in the future, in a way that his final objective “his will” is achieved in the end. He “works together for good…” and does not require to pre-know each small move before it occurs to achieve his aims, or to micromanage anything. This does not stop him from acting in creation “miraculously” if he wishes, as he responds to the moves of other free-will beings in real time. I read in a philosophy/ logic text somewhere (shoot…can’t find the reference now), that libertarian free will is logically impossible if you have an omniscient and omnipotent being “outside of time” who creates the universe in a certain way (he chooses to determines it that way) because when creating he already knows simultaneously what every person will do (hence they are not ultimately free)… So Open Theists would say that God chooses to “enter into time” when he interacts with creation. All of this is a bit mind-blowing for me to grasp. There is a book I haven’t read yet (pretty expensive on Amazon) called “The End of the Timeless God” which presents different Christian views on how God interacts with time, and argues that the classic Augustinian view can’t logically be consistent. I’m curious about this.
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If it is not entirely figurative, and I don’t know why it should be…

With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
2 Peter 3:8

That pretty much tells us that tomorrow is in the present for God now and so is yesterday – his ‘time’ overlaps ours, so to speak, and we shouldn’t expect to be able to get our heads around it (we may sure try ; - ). Something similar to ‘skeptical theism’ might be the right approach. After all, we are told in at least a couple of places about the inscrutability of God.

Again, God could not care less. He does not prepare to react to any move. He does not react. Period. Not in nature. His will sustains fully autonomous nature into which He incarnates by way of solidarity, revelation, apology. Beyond that His will obtains equality of outcome for all. What more could possibly be needed? How could He possibly do better?

Nope. That is a complete rewrite of the text. There is nothing whatsoever in the text about past or future. The only thing it talks about is God’s perception of time compared to the time perception of others.

You may certainly read it like that if you like, but I certainly do not find it to be the only necessary understanding, especially with what we know about his sovereignty over time and place, timing and placing.
 

…before Abraham was born, I AM!
John 8:58

So God knows what we will do but doesnt intervene? And even before we were born?

So let me make an example.God creates a human.He knows this human will end up an atheist.So God knowingly and willingly created an atheist> The reason beign what?

I dont know its sounds stupid.Really curious to hear your argument

Although i can guess it .Its because of “love” aint it ?“sigh”

And God created Satan knowing that he will betray him?

I wont even ask why because of course you wouldnt know.Got to ask the big Guy up there when i meet him.He has a lot of explaining to do lol

Also sorry if my writting seems like an irony.Not intented at all

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That poor verse bears the burden of so much theology thrust upon it.

But the same Greek words are used in other places like John 9:9 where a blind man is simply saying that he is the one who was healed by Jesus.

If that was to me, that poor verse also contains the word before. There is also the burden of the reality of God’s providence, so that poor verse is not lonesome.
 

(What kind of theology?)

I do not understand this claim.
Lets imagine that someone takes a video of the behavior and decisions of some humans, ten years from now. Then the video is somehow sent back in time, so that you can watch what the persons will select. After that, you know what these people will decide in the future. Does your knowing take away their free will?
My answer is no, it does not.

As I wrote earlier, I do not believe that we can choose whatever we want because of our history and circumstances. If the ‘libertarian free will’ is used to mean a completely free choice, then there is not that kind of free will in this universe. Yet, knowing what someone will choose does not reduce the amount of free will from the level we have now, except if you arrest or somehow limit the freedom of the person because of the foreknowing you have.

So even tho’ my future is sent back in time, I can’t watch it?