Former YEC's, what made you change your mind?

I just started reading Coyne’s post, and immediately found myself wondering about this passage,

The word “random” does not, to evolutionists, mean that every gene has the same chance of mutating, nor that mutation rates can’t be affected by other things. What it means is that mutation is not somehow adjusted so that good mutations crop up just when they would be advantageous. My friend Paul Sniegowski, a professor at Penn, uses the term “indifferent” instead of “random,” and I think that’s a better way to describe the neo-Darwinian view of mutations.

and what Coyne would think about non-classical mutations, which appears to really be a thing

After a few notable polemical jabs, Coyne admits Noble is not out of his mind:

And he’s right that those kinds of large changes sometimes happen. We now know, for example, that adaptations can originate with a big part of a gene “jumping” in an organisms to fuse with another gene, producing a hybrid gene that has beneficial consequences to the individual. Something similar occurs when organisms absorb genes from different species, as bacteria often do. Those changes can also occur in eukaryotes, like rotifers, that can take up DNA from, say, fungi, and the absorbed genes can be beneficial.

But that doesn’t show that the modern synthesis is wrong, for those big jumps or horizontally-transmitted changes in DNA must still obey the rules of population genetics. They are equivalent to mutations, but they’re just BIG mutations. The Modern Synthesis has expanded a bit to take account of these new genetic findings, which only recently became possible. But their discovery hardly invalidates the Synthesis.

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@klw thanks again for sharing the article. I am interested to see what Noble has gathered in the 10 years since that was posted. What I read in the Forbes article didn’t strike me as bald creationism coming from Noble. It’s possible that his view has changed or evolved over time.

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I would be interested in your thoughts on Neo-Darwinism, and what you think Neo-Darwinism is. I have found that people have very different views on what Neo-Darwinism is and what they think it describes. I would also be interested in hearing what you think are the theological issues that come up with respect to these processes.

There’s a good article by Carl Zimmer on the Royal Society meeting for the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis in 2016. Here is a snippet from what Douglas Futuyma said to Zimmer at the meeting. The whole article is worth a read.

In other words, Evolution 2.0 or the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis tends to be more about rhetoric and semantics than it is about data. I think most scientists put way more importance on the data than the names we give stuff. For example, what Shapiro calls “natural genetic engineering” the rest of the scientific community calls random mutations because they are random mutations. The mechanisms Shapiro points to are already a part of the theory, and they produce the entire spectrum of mutations from beneficial to neutral to detrimental. There is nothing in those mechanisms that can determine which mutations will be beneficial and only create those mutations. In the vast, vast majority of cases what is described by Evolution 2.0 is already a mechanism found within the modern theory of evolution. The one exception may be the inheritance of methylation patterns, but this mechanism is limited in the species it affects and also limited in the differences it produces. Also, much older concepts of evolution found in the 30’s and 40’s accommodate transgenerational inheritance of methylation patterns just fine.

My view is that Evolution 2.0 is a tempest in a teapot. It doesn’t appear to me to be that different than the theory we already have, and it seems overly reliant on rhetoric.

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I just saw that @T_aquaticus responded in line with my own views. Yeah, I gathered that Nobel’s views are not creationism but more in line with an ID perspective. I’m personally in the natural selection camp, and don’t feel an “Evolution 2.0” revision is needed. But I’m an ecologist and study organisms at a large scale, so rely a bit on others’ expertise like @T_aquaticus with better cutting-edge information at the genetic and physiological scales to update me on any of Nobel’s more recent findings.

cheers

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This appears significant

Xavier’s research made headlines for her discovery of emergent, cooperative networks of molecules that mutually catalyze each other’s formation in ancient bacteria. These systems were first theorized by complexity scientist, Stuart Kauffman, as a candidate for the origins-of-life story that challenges gene-centrism. Xavier studied under Noble and Kauffman before launching the Origin of Life Early-Career Network (OoLEN) with over 200 young, interdisciplinary researchers from around the world. This group co-authored an inaugural scientific paper The Future of Origin of Life Research: Bridging Decades-Old Divisions.

From the Carl Zimmer article I cited above:

Noble relied on rhetoric instead of the actual data. The actual data showed mutations being culled by natural selection, completely in line with bog standard evolutionary theory.

Niche construction is more in your wheelhouse, and from what I can see it is also bog standard evolutionary theory.

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As an added bonus, she is also a philosophy enthusiast

thanks @T_aquaticus , a fascinating story. Yes I’ve published some papers on woodpeckers as “ecosystem engineers” which seems to be the jargon in ecology circles but which equates to the “Niche construction” label in evolutionary circles. You are correct that I see that as bog-standard evolutionary theory, explainable by known mechanisms of natural selection at the individual level. There seems to be a lot of “repackaging” and “relabeling” among Evolution 2.0 proponents, but little that is fundamentally new from my perspective. The hype around “Niche construction” may have served a purpose in drawing new research attention to a concept, but I don’t see the idea fundamentally altering the core place of natural selection as the main evolutionary mechanism.

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I found a different article that may get to the heart of the matter. It describes Noble’s views indirectly, so some allowance should be made for misreporting on Noble’s actual views.

What Noble is calling for is a philosophical view in the most generous light, and a subjective intuition in the poorest light. Either way, I don’t think it can be called science, so there is no reason why the current theory of evolution would need to be adjusted to fit Noble’s views. However, philosophical views and even subjective intuitions can certainly be discussed in relation to theological issues. After all, the raison d’etre of BioLogos is to try and understand how theology interacts with science. Where I think Noble goes off the tracks is expecting his philosophical views to be incorporated into science.

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How about that. I didn’t pay much attention to this thread, but it turns out it’s from the same perspective as Noble’s

I seriously doubt Noble, Ball, or Xavier would dispute the role DNA has in evolution. The extent of which, is what they are disputing, as they also see a role for purpose in the origin of life and maybe evidenced with basic biological structures… :wink: tryptophan microtubules?

They do until they don’t

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If they want to challenge the scientific theory of evolution then they are going to need data instead of what they “see”. What people see (in this context) is their subjective opinion, and science doesn’t use subjective opinions to form theories or challenge them. This is what I mean by rhetoric over data.

“I think what we find emotionally or aesthetically more appealing is not the basis for science.”–Douglas Futuyma

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Science doesn’t form theories, scientists do and they are human like anyone else. Like those who think a theory (or natural law) can explain why something came from nothing.

Yes but scientists know what they don’t know. One of the goals of science is to figure out where the boundaries between established fact, uncertainty, speculation, opinion and “we have no idea” lie, using proven and repeatable tools and methodologies. They see that there are gaps in their knowledge and conduct careful studies to try and figure out what goes in the gaps.

Pseudoscience, on the other hand, sees uncertainty, speculation, opinion and “we have no idea” and treats it as a free pass to make things up or to reject out of hand any and every established fact that they don’t like.

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This is a generalization, but I do understand what you mean.

Just because something isn’t science doesn’t mean it’s psuedoscience.

Does metaphysics relate to what Coyne meant by “he’s not even wrong"?

Pseudoscience is anything that claims to be science but that does not stick to the rules of science.

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Is it science to say mutations are random or indifferent?

According to Coyne

This is a central tenet of evolutionary biology, which Noble says has now been disproven. It hasn’t.

When I say “Neo-Darwinism,” I mean the Modern Synthesis. Since I think we both have read a lot of content on this debate, I will not be so presumptuous as to try to change your mind in this post or others. For my view on Neo-Darwinism, I will simply provide an extended quotation from Noble and Noble’s Understanding Living Systems (CUP, 2023), xix-xx. I will then respond to what you said about the data and what I think is involved theologically. First, the quotation:

This book addresses four fundamental misunderstandings about living organisms. In the first half of the twentieth century, and particularly in the late 1960s and early 1970s, ideas on living organisms and their evolution were formulated in what became known as the Modern Synthesis. For this there were four main pillars: (1) that changes in the structure and function of organisms in one generation could not be passed on through the germ line - this dogma was formulated by August Weissmann in 1883 and, in the mid-twentieth century, became a fundamental part of a gene-centric dogma; (2) that organisms could not alter their genes, so causation was held to be a one-way process, from gene to organism functionality; (3) that the organism was best viewed as a passive vehicle for retaining genes in a ‘gene pool’ and, most significantly, that the behaviour and function of organisms was controlled to this end (this gave birth to the selfish-gene concept, popularised by Richard Dawkins in his selling book, The Selfish Gene); (4) that evolution occurs through small random changes in genes (gene mutations) that are passively selected in the process of natural selection. What we show in this book is that none of these pillars is correct, or stands as originally formulated.

The data are, of course, available to all. The question is, how do we interpret said data. Do we think organisms are passive vehicles, like machines, or do we think that living organisms are actively involved in what is going on? Personally, I actually feel that there is a lot of both going on. And I think we need the curiosity to modify pre-existing paradigms when necessary. To do so is not to devalue the work of others or to ignore what they had right. It is to build on a foundation.

Theologically, I think that living systems display something like what biblical authors convey concerning human responsibility and divine determinism. (I am not here trying to interpret the scientific evidence through the Bible or vice versa, just noticing possible connections.) I guess I would extend “human responsibility” to “creaturely responsibility.” Noble and others are keen to stress free will in life. I would be keen to suggest that there is something to what the scientific determinists are saying, as well. I do think free will is there, but there is something else, too. Evolutionary convergence (see Simon Conway Morris) also points in the direction of some sort of “control” to what life can/will do.

I would say that humans have attained a moral awareness of what they are doing that a cell, an ant, and a dog do not have in the same way. However, I think that the mystery of good and evil is present all the way down. Moreover, I think that what we would call good and evil are both necessary for the formation of life as we know it, including humanity. Thus, life is the “struggle for existence” (Darwin) and it is also a story of cooperation (as is widely recognized). Good and evil are present all the way down, and we as humans have become aware of that. I think this is all supported biblically/theologically.

As I interpret the data scientifically and theologically/philosophically, I am persuaded that the Modern Synthesis is not the best model. I am not out to undermine established science or to overlook data, I just think we need to reevaluate our paradigms.

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Hey @klw, thanks for the response. I read Coyne’s article. In regard to what he said, I go back to the more recent debate between Dawkins and Noble that I posted above. I found it very intriguing that Dawkins was silent on certain points. This shows me that the “third way” is making many legitimate points that must be conceded. At the same time, I found it evident that there is legitimate disagreement over certain issues. I continue to watch the developments with interest.

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They may be conceded as valid, but not really in conflict with the modern synthesis. Concepts such as organisms transforming their own environment, mutability, epigenetic inheritance and sexual selection can be accommodated within the standard paradigm. Randomness never did demand equal odds of mutation at every genetic locality. Convergence, such as the body plan of tetrapods which return to aquatic environments, absolutely supports classical selection.

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