Former YEC's, what made you change your mind?

It can also be viewed as God still caring for Adam and Eve. It shows his grace. But I do accept the theology of Genesis 1-11. So it makes sense that it was God’s intention for humans and animals to live in peace, yet we don’t live up to that role.

I don’t agree with everything John Walton writes, but I think his take on Sabbath has a lot of merit. He writes: “The rest … is more importantly an expression of engagement as the deity takes his place at the helm to maintain an ordered, secure, and stable cosmos. … People are commanded to participate in the rest of God on the Sabbath, not to imitate his rest but in recognition of his work of bringing and maintaining order. His control is represented in his rest and is recognized by people yielding for the day their own attempts to provide for themselves.” (The Lost World of the Torah, 250,252)

See also Psalm 132:13-18, especially verse 14, where Yahweh calls Zion his resting place. From there he blesses the land, as seen in the following verses.

This also explains why Deuteronomy gives the Exodus as the rationale for the Sabbath. By delivering the Israelites from Egypt, he gave them rest.

Which verse?

https://biologos.org/articles/pauls-adam

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Yes --they lose their faith because YEC pastors taught them that if Genesis isn’t 100% scientifically accurate then the Bible cannot be trusted, so when they find out that Genesis isn’t 100% scientifically accurate then they follow what their YEC pastors taught them and abandon the faith.

I witnessed this hundreds of times in my university days; every single Christian I knew who abandoned the faith did so because they found out that YEC is a lie – or rather a whole immense heap of lies.

I don’t remember any who lost faith in that, they lost faith because of YEC lies.

I don’t “think” it, I know it, because I observed it happen repeatedly.

Excellent book, though a bit depressing. I got it one Christmas from my older brother – he gave everyone a great book and told us to rotate them. My younger brother got 1421: The Year China Discovered the World.

I knew a guy in Campus Crusade when I was in university who suffered through a business major before switching to math. What he really wanted to study was science but if he had, his parents would have stopped paying for most of his tuition – they refused to consider that it was possible to take “godless science” courses and not lose faith. Math was the closest he could get to science and stay in school.

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You mean the view that people with no expertise in the subjects they write on should be trusted over people who actually know what they’re talking about?

And critically, “creation science” people generally state up front that they’re not actually doing science, they’re playing science to try to support the bizarre view that the scriptures teach science.

And why it is authoritative!

I had two different geology professors who put verses from the Psalms about God’s faithfulness on the front of the course syllabus – the foundation for “uniformitarian geological principles”.

I went with some friends to a scientific creationist conference. We weren’t that great at science, but we were appalled at how incoherent the treatment of the scriptures was. We took copies of everything that was free to examine later and decided it was a good thing they were free because they were bad at both science and scripture. Our conclusion was that what one speaker called "scriptural science’ was that it was neither science nor scriptural.

But not actually the Bible, it’s the Bible interpreted through a lens of scientific materialism’s premise that for something to be true it has to be 100% scientifically accurate.

They’re actually lying there because they don’t use the historical-grammatical method! That approach requires that each piece of literature in the scriptures be examined from the perspective of its historical context, which includes language, culture, worldview, and literary type. If you want someone who actually applies the historical-grammatical method, listen to Dr. Michael Heiser.

Amen.

We also have methods of determining minimum ages of rocks that require no assumptions or preconceptions – they only require applying knowledge obtained in laboratories – that tell us that the world’s youngest mountain ranges are at the very least hundreds of thousands of years old and probably millions of years.

Heh. Kenyon writes some things despite the fact that he should know better.

And that’s true even when you’ve done your homework with the original languages, literary types, culture, worldview, etc. When skipping those, one can’t even claim to be doing theology and will never get close to the actual meaning except by luck.

And it is alien! Things they took for granted, scholars have to learn painstakingly and remind themselves for years before they manage to grasp even some of the simple literary forms.

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יָסַד-אֶרֶץ, עַל-מְכוֹנֶיהָ; בַּל-תִּמּוֹט, עוֹלָם וָעֶד

“He laid earth on foundations so that not should it be moved an age and forever.”

This is clearly an assertion that the earth rests on foundations such that it shall not ever move. How is it that you force science into Genesis 1 but refuse to accept science here? In Genesis 1 the grammar doesn’t fit a regular week well but you regard it as just one week, but here the grammar is not unclear, it fits this as an objective assertion.

Okay, I read them in the Hebrew. Every one of them fits the actual Hebrew worldview of a flat earth-disk under a solid sky-dome, resting on foundations that extended down into the “waters below”, i.e. the part of the “great deep” that is beneath the earth. None of them contribute to disputing the assertion in Psalm 104 that the earth doesn’t move, they support it.

This just shows that you’re very selective about what you take as scientifically accurate and what you don’t.

Which for what it’s worth isn’t actually true, as has been demonstrated in the U.S. southwest especially over the last few decades: as animals have been protected for a few generations, they lose their fear of humans, to the point that bears, mountain lions, and even coyotes have taken human babies and toddlers while the parents were in sight. Wildlife scientists had to convince authorities that unless actions were taken to teach these animals to fear humans such events would continue, and even get worse.

There’s nothing vague about the assertions in the Psalms that the earth won’t move, or the one in Chronicles. They’re indicative assertions just as much as “in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth”.

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Anti-intellectualism is what I see as the root problem. Believers will start to doubt if they are told that they have to stop using reason, logic, and facts in order to be a Christian. This is especially problematic when they are told to believe things that are demonstrably false, such as many of the claims made in YEC literature. So not only are they told to stop thinking, they are also told to believe things that are false.

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”–Galileo Galilei

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I never believed in YECism really. Mostly just because I was an all A student for the majority of my life and made it past 7th grade earth sciences.

But I did use to believe in ID. But changed my mind because there is just no scientific evidence for it. Just nothing in all of nature that makes me think…. Well magic is the best answer to this gap.

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I grew up moving around the country (Air Force dad), but half of my pre-college days were spent in a church that openly promoted YEC. This church was and is a warm and loving place. I have fond memories of it. When I was in 7th grade, an ICR speaker came to the church to talk about the reasons for a young earth, no macro evolution, etc. What stood out to me was that he was speaking during the normal time for the sermon. We were a church, mind you, that HIGHLY valued Scripture, and the time for preaching it was being given to this issue. The message to me was clear–this is a make-or-break issue for Christians. Walking into the service, I still recall opening to Genesis 1 and wondering out loud whether the days of creation might correspond, in a way, to the stages of natural history that scientists suggest. If I recall correctly, my father was gracious and affirmed that my thought was interesting, but then qualified that Scripture seems to require a young earth. While I found the presentation interesting and bought into YEC, I like to describe that early curiosity as an “itch” that never went away.

When I left home for college, I had a faith-defining moment where I decided that my faith was the most important thing to me, and the way I pursued that was by being as “conservative” about that faith as possible. Honestly, it is the only thing that made sense to me if I was to be faithful. I was somewhat embattled over things like evolution, though I never seriously studied it.

I went to a conservative seminary after college, eventually earning an MDiv and a PhD. Some way through my PhD studies, I was pastoring a small church (still here!) and going crazy doing the necessarily “mile-deep-and-inch-wide” studies to earn a doctorate. The way I dealt with that mental frustration was by working slower on my dissertation than necessary while also reading more widely. During this time of “extracurricular reading,” I returned to my “itch.” I read Douglas Axe’s book Undeniable, which was interesting but didn’t fully scratch the itch. ID, in my opinion, is often very good at explaining problems in our understanding, it’s just debatable whether they also venture toward explanations that advance our understanding in positive ways.

Eventually, I wandered across a video of a 2019 Royal Society meeting announcing Perry Marshall’s $10 million prize for anyone who could discover naturally occurring code (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJSCBeLD05M). I was floored by what I was watching. He talked about growing up as a pastor’s kid, his brother going to a conservative seminary, which then led his brother to become a missionary to China, where he learned stuff that dismantled his YEC worldview, and he essentially became an atheist. The two got into an intense argument and Perry, with an engineering background and a book on ethernet to his credit, decided to explore the science on evolution, even if what he found destroyed his faith. I knew I had to read his book, Evolution 2.0, which is endorsed by Denis Noble and other top biologists.

Reading that book changed my mind. For me (and for Perry), I needed something outside of the standard, Neo-Darwinian answer. The Blind Watchmaker, which I have now read, wouldn’t have convinced me. But Perry did. He revealed that nature was a whole lot more interesting than most scientists were talking about, and that the Creator was a whole lot more interesting than the Creationists were talking about. The book focuses on the mechanisms that have led the field to discuss an “extended synthesis,” with some thinking that we need a new synthesis altogether. In any case, it wasn’t Dawkins’s evolution, but it WAS evolution. It was the evolution of McClintock, Margulis, Shapiro, Noble, etc.

Since then, I have been hooked on evolution, how it works, and how that should form a dialogue with our faith. As Pierre Teilhard de Chardin said in The Phenomenon of Man,

“But, as the tension [between science and religion] is prolonged, the conflict visibly seems to need to be resolved in terms of an entirely different form of equilibrium—not in elimination, nor duality, but in synthesis. … And the reason is simple: the same life animates both.”

Thanks for all who read my story. I would be interested to hear from anyone who resonates. And by the way, my church by and large does not know my convictions about evolution. I am currently seeking a new church that might be open to my ideas.

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Amen! And that’s true of the scriptures as well; they make the first Creation account into something I can only call shallow, losing the incredible richness and brilliance of the writer and the actual messages. I’m not that good at biology; the science I know better is geology‡, but what I know better than either is taking the text in the original language as what it is, not what I’d like it to be§.

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‡ that and practically-earned west coast dune ecology

§ which I think was the point behind the Greek program I took starting us in Xenophon and Herodotus and Aesop, se we would get used to treating the Greek as Greek and not falling back on familiar English phrasing.

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Welcome to the forum, David. Good to have you here and look forward to your insights and contributions. It is tough being a pastor these days, so you have our prayers. Keeping a church together in these times of division is difficult, but concentrating on faithfulness in Christ is never wrong.

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Thanks for your encouraging words, Phil. Yes, I agree that encouraging faithfulness and unity around Christ is always a right approach. In that spirit, I have been trying to expand people’s horizons by showing that Jesus himself certainly expanded people’s horizons. It is slow going. Sometimes I think God is smiling at me because I was so staunchly conservative, thinking that “conservative” was synonymous with “correct.” Now I get to minister to people who, in many ways, are coming from a place where I once resided. It’s tough not only that 1) they are unlikely to change, but that 2) they are unlikely to accept others into their circle, including me, who have changed as we have. Number 1 keeps me working on small changes. Number 2 leads me to think that this is not meant to be my long-term place of ministry.

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I have also heard the quip from other biologists that it might be more accurate to call it Evolution 1.3.01.2b or a similar designation.

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What exactly do they mean by that? Do they mean because it doesn’t really tell us about anything we didn’t already know? I have heard that response.

Hello Tabitha/Heather!!

I was not exposed to YEC thinking until reaching college. And that was when I became a Christian. It was just “the thing that was taught” in church. It seemed that you “had” to believe it. I listened to speakers who talked about inconsistencies in evolutionary arguments, even decrying the influence of higher education on people’s willingness to believe in a young universe, etc…I had a Bible with a timeline in it that showed where all those early genealogies fit…

I got away from Christianity as a whole–for other reasons… But after returning to it, everything I had once thought — who was Jesus, why believe the Bible? who needs to go to church? —became an issue. Subjects like history, which interests me, eventually overlap with subjects like archaeology and geology—so what was I going to do with all those “billions of years” these other fields simply accept? I knew that there are data from secular sources that affirm the details of the biblical text (I could elaborate but won’t) — so ifI like it when the secular fields around me affirm the text, was it not dishonest to refuse to at least take a look at areas where they dispute it and see “what fits and what does not fit with the data around us”?

So that is where I have been on this…
There is a lot more to the subject but that is it in a nutshell…

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Essentially, that it’s not as much of an update as certain of its advocates promote it as being.

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Interesting. My response to a moment like that was to dive into the text and try to not accept anything not found there. That meant taking ancient Greek in order to proceed to Koine Greek, and later to take Hebrew. The former played a small part, but it was primarily Hebrew that drove me to wonder how the writers intended their words to be understood.

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Reading these descriptions of what helped change minds on this issue is helping me get a handle on why people would believe YEC in the first place. Great topic!

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It is certainly true that it is not exactly an update. The research is not new, at least in its essential contributions. I see that criticism.

However, I think it is important to note that Marshall is a marketing consultant. One can see how much that plays into his writing. (I have a B.S. in Business/Marketing.) Part of his “marketing language” is how much he plays up ideas like, “Why isn’t anyone talking about this?!” Is it overhyped? Sure. But it makes sense given his background. Given that background, I think his “update” is more in public perception than anything. It is possible to see evolution as purposeful, and the update is to present it as such, since until then there was hardly anything available to the public that was doing so, at least not in the same way.

I have read Francis Collins and others who see a sort of purpose in creation, even if seen from a Neo-Darwinian perspective. I now respect them very highly (which is why I’m on this forum). But for me, I couldn’t see true purpose in evolution until I read Marshall’s book.

In short, I understand the critique, but for some of us who are not biologists, I think it took a marketing guy to show us how different evolution could be from what we had heard.

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Your story is interesting, too. It took me several years to get to the original languages. I found them similarly impactful when I did!

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For me, there were a few key pillars that led to me leaving YECism behind, but first a brief history.

  • When I first became a Christian, I remember reading Genesis 1 as part of a Bible study, and I remarked on how amazing it was that God was the creator and how he utilized the big bang from cosmology and evolution. I was pulled aside by the Bible study leader, who was greatly concerned, and they gently told me, “You have to believe exactly what the Bible says.”
  • I went deep into reading about YEC articles for many hours each day. I asked for YEC magazine subscriptions and books for my birthday or Christmas and became a bit of a YEC apologist, using some of their arguments in evangelistic settings. Interestingly, today, many YECs assume that I am not familiar with their material, and I’ve had fellow Christians, and even students of mine buy me YEC writings.

And then… everything changed. How?

  • Well, I got a job as a university professor as a YEC. I remember utilizing a few YEC ideas that probably helped me secure my job as the previous dean of our college was very fundamentalist. One of the things was how I proposed I would teach students how to look at a science article and grab the “true bits” (as if I and the students knew better than the researchers doing the actual work).
  • The problem was that I, as a YEC with a PhD in Physics, was the only Physicist at my university. So I was the one to teach the class on cosmology my first year there.

Teaching Cosmology as a YEC

  • Well, I certainly wasn’t going to just give them standard Big Bang cosmology, despite what I declared when I was first born again. So I actually found some alternative cosmologies about the universe and assigned these books as “required readings.” But the biggest problem was that I wanted to present what it was that cosmologists (you know the people who actually do this for their jobs) had to say and why… BUT IT BEGAN TO MAKE SENSE. I began getting rocked by how amazing the explanations and evidence for modern cosmology actually were, down to the details of the amount of Hydrogen, Helium, and Deuterium in the entire universe.
  • I never ended up assigning those other “alternative science texts” and came to realize that they were a bad joke - they were some “lone ranger” who solved all of cosmology’s outstanding questions with their grand idea, yet they’ve never written a single scientific paper themselves or bothered to let other relevant experts test their ideas. They are always published on blogs, websites, and books, but never actual peer-reviewed literature.

YEC material is kind of embarrassing…

  • Looking back at YEC material today is honestly really embarrassing. I don’t know how to say this any other way, but I picture it like this. Imagine an iceberg where 95% of it is underground and 5% over the water. I was only ever shown the 5%, or things that we don’t quite understand too well as of yet, but no YEC outlet ever tells you about the 95% of really solid, good science. It was quite sad when I realized this, as there as SO many amazing/cool things about God’s creation that YEC cannot see because of their bias.
  • Actual YEC science is bad. Like really bad. I’ve appreciated how @jammycakes points out how it fails at basic scientific rigor. One time, I presented the YEC alternative to how the Earth has experienced at least 184 geomagnetic reversals. Here’s a few of them:

Anyways, the YEC graph is sad. They just crunch all of this into a tiny timescale, but BEFORE they had this graph, they used to present how the magnetic field is decreasing:

  • And then I once presented the updated YEC version, now that we know the Earth’s magnetic field has switched ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY THREE TIMES at least:

A close up of a map Description generated with very high confidence|467px;x317px;

  • That’s it. A few squiggles and then a nice peak at the time of Christ. While this might be appealing to some people, when I student asked me where did this graph come from I froze for 30 seconds before replying, I think he just made it up.
  • That was a terrifying thing for me to say as someone who values technical accuracy, but after spending days researching the topic, I concluded that indeed, the YEC writer just made it up. In fact, if I were to grade Answers in Genesis’ Rapidly Decaying Magnetic Field article, this is what I would say:

Anyways, to make a long story short, the intellectual rigor of YEC science is VERY low and embarrassingly poor. I don’t necessarily blame them as they believe so strongly in what they preach and tend to believe in good faith as well. I never once was maliciously doing science as a YEC (and I got a PhD in Physics as one too!). BUT my very strong beliefs tended to make me think I knew better than all those other scientists. Laughingly I thought I knew better than cosmologists, nuclear physicists, geophysicists, etc. despite having never done any experiments or written any papers in their fields myself. But I knew better because I believed I had God’s truth at my side and all that superseded those godless scientists. Sadly though, it was me who was deceived and there were so many of God’s people doing that amazing science I was quick to dismiss in my zealous ignorance.

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It never ceases to amaze me how, when I am confronted with young earth arguments, it’s not complex, esoteric, postgraduate-level concepts in physics, geology or biology that I have to address. It’s the most elementary, fundamental basics. Young earth arguments repeatedly demonstrate a near total vacuum of understanding of the basic concepts of how measurement works and how it places tight constraints on which interpretations of the evidence are legitimate and which ones are not.

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