For the first time questioning traditional creationism, few questions about evolutionary creationism/theistic evolution


To say I am the most science based is a fair assessment. I make no bones about the fact that I started with the scientific worldview and this was the perceptual filter through which I read the Bible. It is unavoidable that we all read the Bible with some perceptual filter or another, for scientists have demonstrated that there is no perception independent of belief. Furthermore I am always defending the epistemological superiority of science, only drawing the line against the naturalist premise that the scientific worldview represents the limit of reality.

Yet you can also say that I am fairly orthodox. Enough that I find aleo a little too unorthodox at times. I am Trinitarian and I stick pretty close to the Bible, taking Genesis to be historical just not without some symbolism involved in the A&E story. I am not Calvinist or Arminian but open theist. I am a 5 solas Protestant in the western (non-Baptist) evangelical tradition, though I tend to agree more with the Eastern Orthodox on a number of theological issues.

aleo’s “decined invitation” as opposed to a “fall from Grace” way of looking at things is not unreasonable considering how brief the whole Eden state of man was anyway. I have a bigger problem with his focus on altruism versus selfishness which I think already has an adequate explanation in evolution. The difference between man and animals is simply language and the human mind constructed in that medium. And I think the fall was about self-destructive habits called sin which not only separates us from God but is much like a degenerative illness destroying all of our free will, love, and growth potential.


Just one more thought and please, correct me if I’m wrong but the Biblical tradition has it that the watchers of Genesis 6, actually did supply their occult followers with advanced scientific and engineering knowledge, such as mathematics and metallurgy and writing and astronomy.

Conversely, Abrahamic followers have received powerful prophecies and wise social customs, but never it seems received advanced scientific engineering knowledge.

The language is imagery of the Bible, especially Genesis, one gives me the impression that he God in Heaven is aware of advanced water scientific principles, that awareness diffuses through so to speak? however. The fact remains the God in Heaven chose Abraham not say Archimedes or Aristarchus.

And yet there have been others who have claimed to have received “help with their science homework” so to speak.

Mitch, I too find science a useful filter through which the Bible (especially the OT) should be interpreted. And yes, I am Unorthodox to the extent that I can NOT consider Abraham as the "Father of my Faith". Like another, more recent, leader (that here shall remain nameless) I see him using Faith as an excuse to promote his own selfish interests.
God bless.
Al Leo


Erik, can you honestly claim that the social customs outlined in Deuteronomy (and elsewhere in the OT) are WISE?? For the times, certain dietary restrictions may have had results that were practical and positive (foregoing pork and certain seafoods), but some interpersonal relations (e.g.,“an eye for an eye…”) are still accepted by many–to the detriment of all humanity.
God bless.
Al Leo

The main point I want to emphasize is that Abrahamic faiths have never claimed to receive. Scientific technical engineering industrial. Or other such knowledge.

Kinds of communications they claim to receive from Heaven are powerful and salient. In other ways, but they are not as it were “help with science homework”

Meanwhile, there have been those who have claimed to have received advanced technical knowledge. And those would be the secretive occult faiths Which the Bible interprets as followers of the fallen angelic watchers.

So you are at least 95 Al.



Hi Everyone, I am very new to this type of forum so excuse me if I am off topic. I was reading about
creation, evolution, Adam and Eve and The Fall. I really didn’t question my idea of creation until the sudden and tragic death of my 19 year old son. His death has been so traumatic for me that I started
questioning everything I thought I had believed. It has been 6 years since his death but I am still wrestling with my beliefs.I know the main points of the Christian faith are about christ, death, resurrection and being raised from the dead. However, none of this would have been necessary if
there was not original sin… the Fall etc. We have moved to 4 different location’s since my son’s death and I have found if you bring up the issue of human evolution within the church, they look at you as if you have major problems or are not really a Christian. I met with 2 pastors of the church I have been attending for the last 6 months. I did not realize they were young earthers. I wanted to discuss the different accounts of the Genius story and one week before meeting with them, I sent them short 15 video made by Debra Haarasma and her husband pointing 5 different views and had asked them to review it before we met. To my great disappointment, neither of them had. They basically refused to talk about some books of the Bible being written in poetic method and some books written in different genre. They said in my pain, I was just putting a wall up walls against God by wanting to discuss these things. I must admit, I was much more happy believing in the literal account of Adam and Eve but as uncomfortable as it is, I just can’t jive the two with modern science. I am sorry if I have gone off topic but I am finding it hard to fit in with the young earth folks at my church (I always feel like I need to keep it a secret or I will be shunned for my emerging ideas and yes, unsettling beliefs.) I have done google searches far and wide and have not found a single church in which they believe in human evolution…unless they are very liberal and do not adhere to basic tenant’s of the Christian beliefs. Does anyone know a church in the South Florida (Delray Beach area) where they believe in evolution?
Like I said, finding Biologs has definitely been a blessing and a curse. It was much easier being blissfuly ignorant of the scientific discoveries. Also, one more thing. My pastor who is a young, hip kind of guy and believes in a young earth, anyway, he sent me clips online. One entitled, "The Danger of Biologos"written by the publication called, Answers Magazine. I guess sometimes I wonder…could those of us who believe in Theistic Evolution be right when , I am not exaggerating, probably 98% of the church thinks it is evil. Please share your opinions. Thanks, Kate


Truth is not determined democratically – I know an atheist who routinely cites demographic numbers in a rather sad ad populum fallacy addiction.

God’s providence is wonderful… in Christians’ lives and in providentially guided evolution. Hence my adopted identity of ‘evolutionary providentialist’. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Hi Kate. So sorry for your loss and that you have not found much compassion or understanding in your church communities as you have worked through your grief and questions. That would be very lonely and discouraging.

It is helpful to remember that in many congregations there are people who do not share the views of the leadership when it comes to science, but like you, they may have experienced negative reactions when they have shared their views, so they now keep quiet. Sometimes it takes awhile for kindred spirits to reveal themselves. Also, there are churches in which pastors are open to multiple perspectives on origins, but again, they might not be super vocal about it because they don’t want to create controversy. More and more Christian venues are broaching the topic though. An EC friend of mine who has worked on the Integrate curriculum for BioLogos was recently asked to share about her perspective as a biology teacher at a CRU event for young people. When she shared her testimony of accepting evolution and loving the Lord, it moved many in the audience to tears and she had over fifty kids wanting to speak to her after her talk about more information on harmonizing science and faith. The Evangelical magazine Christianity Today has a new editor in chief who served at on point on BioLogos’ advisory board and who wrote a book called Nature’s Witness: How Evolution Can Inspire Faith. Their science editor Rebecca Randall regularly features work by evolution accepting Christians, like this article from yesterday about Josh Swamidass’ new book. The science faculty at the majority of CCCU colleges accept evolution and teach it to their students within a Christian framework. So I think the “people in the pew” perception that evolution is only the domain of atheists is shifting and will continue to shift.

I hope you can find some support in this online community and feel free to share your ongoing struggles and questions. Anytime you would like to start a new thread about something, just go to the main page (click on “The BioLogos Forum” at the top) and click on the gray box at the top that says “+New Topic.”


First of all, I echo Christy’s advice to you, and greet you also with hopes that you’ll find a congregation of compassionate and caring people who are open to truth.

Nor are you likely to; most churches aren’t about such “sciencey” stuff, much less picking something controversial out of science and landing on that to advertise as some central part of their identity. That would be “virtue signaling” of a rather unhealthy looking extreme even to many of us Christians who have no problem with God using evolutionary mechanisms. So I suggest that the best you should hope for in this regard is to find a church that doesn’t make a big deal of all this (either way) and has leadership that at least doesn’t exhibit hostility toward science, and (even better) encourages active curiosity in all areas (including science) in the pursuit of truth and understanding, welcoming all regardless of their comfort or discomfort with various scientific outlooks.


Kate, just want to echo Christy in encouraging you and hopefully being a positive influence. If you are in some areas, It does seem like 98% of churches are young earthers, but that is quite regional and globally, the church as a whole is probably majority old earth, and Pew polls seem to indicate U S church members are only 30-40 % YEC, with the rest old earth of some variety or undecided. I will agree that the YEC crowd tends to be the most vocal. Of course, denominations differ.


Hi Kate,

Thanks for sharing your story. I am so sorry to hear about your son’s death. I am the father of 4 grown kids, so I can imagine (but not truly know) the pain you have experienced.

I have also felt out of place in evangelical churches at times due to my acceptance of the science of biology. I find more peace when I try to focus on the good qualities I find in church communities.

Also, I have come to the place where I don’t think of remaining silent on origins (most of the time) as a lack of honesty. I am simply choosing to put first things first.

I do worry about the students who might get lost in the alleged battle between “godless science” and “faithfulness to literal truth.” I exposed my own kids to evolutionary creationism to help inoculate them against the problem. I think they might have helped a few of their peers before they took wing from our house.



Thousands of religions and denominations all pointing at the others and saying that they are evil.

guess what?

They are all correct!

The only deception here is the implication that by pointing their fingers at other people that they are somehow an exception… that they themselves are not evil… or even less evil. Sorry. Nope!


2 Thess 2 has long warned that, in The End of Earth Time (Rev 20:7-9), heaven will send a “deluding spirit” to most of humanity (who will have forsaken the truth, for honeyed words they wish were true, evidently a malevolent twist on the term “good news”, preachers will come to them with “good [for them] news” and they will buy it “hook line & sinker” as they say)

yes, it is quite ironic, that everybody everywhere simultaneously feeling themselves individually special & unique, makes them all the same

By saying that all are evil I certainly do not mean that there is no good in them also. They are both. All of them. And while we are advised to be wise and see evil for what it is, I suggest that the more heavenly discernment is to see the good in things. It is a Satanic quality to see only the evil in people and things and not the good. God sees both and I think He tends to point more to the good because seeing the good in things is the more needed and heavenly vision of things.

Where we fool are ourselves is by thinking that by calling out warnings of the greater evil and thus by avoiding the greater evil that we are thereby doing some good. But then we have Jesus’ warning about being lukewarm. Aiming for the gray simply makes us a breeding ground for evil and doesn’t make sufficient progress towards good. Perhaps calling out the good and thus encouraging people to seek the good things out instead is a better help in building the kingdom of heaven.

Kate, Kate, Kate. ask them.

Hi Martin,
Thanks for sending the info. Unfortunately, I’m a very wounded X-Roman Catholic so the Episcopal church just reminds me to much of Catholic Church.
I wish I could find a church that is non- denominational but more open to evolution. I think it will be difficult to find. It’s funny, but the church you recommended is on the same street the church we are presently attending.

I’m so sorry Kate. Demand an accounting from them or even yet the RCC if you can perhaps?

… perhaps that’s a sign Kate :slight_smile:

Thanks everyone for you encouragement and condolences about my son.
I’m am also responding to Martin’s message. I am just wondering what a RCC is?

Sorry Kate. The Roman Catholic Church.

I agree that Episcopal, which is US Anglican, is catholic. The form of service very much so, some of the twiddly bits, the tenets of belief, not, but they don’t always arise. I’ve been in RC services and felt completely at home. Just couldn’t take communion! Only the big, traditional denominations including early Reformation origin ones, Old World ones, will have the sophistication, the experience to have absorbed evolution. Established, educated Christianity couldn’t keep up with the rate of colonization in America.

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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