Faith Proof and Evidence - does a fact terminate a belief

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@T_aquaticus

There are compelling testimonies within other religions that I suspect you would not be convinced by.

Cite one. Christians, at least a lot of us, believe in a literal adversary who is the father of lies and who can present himself as an angel of light, apparently. He would be capable of presenting other kinds of counterfeits, too, I expect, to the gullible.

[Vinnie]

@T_aquaticus

There are compelling testimonies within other religions that I suspect you would not be convinced by.

I find this to be a good counter point. Conservatives like to tout testimony when it agrees with their theology. Though I must say that not all of us think we have the only correct religion. God is certainly bigger than the theological boxes we confine Him to. I find it comforting that there is compelling testimony across the world in many different cultures. At least I know I’m not crazy and if I am, I am in good company.

Vinnie

[T_aquaticus]

@Dale

Cite one.

Joseph Smith, for one. There are millions within the LDS church who have found his testimony quite compelling. The testimony of Muhammad has been equally compelling to many.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@T_aquaticus

Joseph Smith, for one.

Well, there’s this,

@beaglelady

It depends on the person and how much cognitive dissonance he or she can bear. Look at the Book of Mormon–none of its claims can stand up to scrutiny (e.g. the claim that ancient Jews sailed to the Americas and were the ancestors of the native Americans). DNA has disproved that, but people still believe it.

…and there is a lot of cognitive dissonance in Islam, too.

 

But never mind…

@Dale

You need to have some skin in the game, and as of now that hasn’t happened to you, and I will not be able to argue you into it.

[Vinnie]

Much in the Bible does not stand up to rational scrutiny either. You just think it does because it is the epistemic base of your religious doctrine. Other people are just as convinced of their Holy Book and experiences with God as the conservative Christians claiming theres is error free despite not being nothing of the sort. Religious pluralism is a huge problem for exclusive Christians.

Vinnie

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Vinnie

You just think it does because it is the epistemic base of your religious doctrine.

No, because of reality, and the reality (and quantity) of my heavenly Father’s providential interventions into my life over the last 73 years (and actually before, as well).

[T_aquaticus]

@Dale

But never mind…

Indeed, you need some skin in the LDS game.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

That was not compelling. If you belong to God, he’ll let you know. I hope for your sake it is gently.

[T_aquaticus]

@Dale

That was not compelling.

To a resolute unbeliever, it wouldn’t be compelling. If you belong to God, he’ll let you know. I hope for your sake it is gently.

[Vinnie]

None of that guarantees the details of your Holy Book are accurate. It just shows God is love and is willing to accommodate your theology. The argument just doesn’t follow.

It is extremely rude an insulting when Christians think their experiences with God are the only real ones and everyone else is deceived by the devil, the prince of lies appearing as an angel of light, as one of your earlier posts insinuates.

Vinnie

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@T_aquaticus

Indeed, you need some skin in the LDS game.

At first I thought this was a typo, and you were recommending that Dale get some skin in the LSD game. But I think I get it now. It could be a very different forum here indeed … perhaps with some noticeable improvements from some quarters? (Not you, Dale, - stay strong!)

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Vinnie

as one of your earlier posts insinuates.

Vinnie

It was not an insinuation.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Find me a trustworthy testimony from another faith comparable to Maggie’s, or better yet, something comparable to George Müller’s thousands of answers to prayer.

[T_aquaticus]

@Mervin_Bitikofer

At first I thought this was a typo, and you were recommending that Dale get some skin in the LSD game.

LSD sends you on a trip for 12 hours. LDS sends you on a trip for 2 years.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

And calls you “Elder” when you’re 18.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

@jpm

Faith to me is the belief in things that cannot be proven. If something is proven within the limits of reasonable doubt, then faith that what is proven is in fact false, is delusional.

Interesting bit of semantics here. I think trusting something like a seat or a rope swing doesn’t require the same level of committed decision making as religious faith. At the very least it is hard to say in advance just what would confirm your religious faith in the way that the seat or swing just has to hold up your weight. I think faith and trust apply in all these cases but religious faith may have to make do without any simple confirmation process. But I think that lack of straightforward confirmation applies to many human commitments.

[beaglelady]

@Dale

…and there is a lot of cognitive dissonance in Islam, too.

Yes, but nothing like in Mormonism. the BoM makes claims about the Americans that are demonstrably false. And they claim that the faithful become gods and get to rule over a planet after they die. And on and on it goes.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

That hardly promotes a reciprocal loving Father/child relationship (nor does Islam). What other world religions do?

[beaglelady]

Mormonism has lots of gods, but their god is only the god of earth. And their god started as a man and gradually became a god. And there is no beginning and no creator god in charge of it all.

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

I think you are on the right track in thinking that the testimonies from people who engage in other faiths no doubt bring powerful personal stories of their God’s life-changing power or the wonderment of knowing Him.

I haven’t found them to be compelling. Are you familiar with sources where Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucianists, Zionists, and/or any other spiritually oriented people pay verbal tribute to their gods?