Faith Proof and Evidence - does a fact terminate a belief

The Christian faith, definitely. It is not merely about rationality – it is also about spiritual eyes and ears, or a softened heart, to use another metaphor.

All of those ‘coincidences’, in order, along with their imputed meanings tying together otherwise disjoint events, is like winning several lotteries on the same day, not to mention Maggie’s initiative compounding it.

Sometimes proof terminates a belief and sometimes it doesn’t. It depends on the person and how much cognitive dissonance he or she can bear. Look at the Book of Mormon–none of its claims can stand up to scrutiny (e.g. the claim that ancient Jews sailed to the Americas and were the ancestors of the native Americans). DNA has disproved that, but people still believe it.

3 Likes

Recently I just saw an old Youtube video (2011) by Kathryn Schulz: (On being wrong).

In it she asks people in the audience what it feels like to be wrong. They gave her the expected sort of answers: embarrassing, humiliating, etc.

Then she responded: You all just answered the wrong question. That’s what it feels like when you discover that you’re wrong. Actually, just being wrong feels pretty good … in fact … it feels exactly like being right!

1 Like

Without the probability calculations it is difficult to verify what you are claiming.

1 Like

As I’ve said, someone else’s testimony, no matter how remarkable, is not compelling evidence to the resolute unbeliever (which you are, at this point, anyway). Calculating the odds is really irrelevant, because if one testimony is not compelling, forty-seven won’t be either, no matter how astronomically improbable any particular ‘coincidence’, or set or sequence of them, may be.

(One was all it took to be encouraging to Glenn Morton.)

There are compelling testimonies within other religions that I suspect you would not be convinced by.

The odds are absolutely relevant, as is the order of prediction and observation. If I said that I prayed to God to get heads when I flipped a coin and got heads after 4 tosses, would you find that compelling? The order of prediction and observation is vital as well. Extremely improbable events happen every minute of every day, so it isn’t as compelling when an event is given significance after it has already occurred. This is somewhat related to the Sharpshooter fallacy.

I agree, the rules of probability and statistics are valid. But who they happen to is another matter.

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
 
Proverbs 16:33

 
You need to have some skin in the game, and as of now that hasn’t happened to you, and I will not be able to argue you into it.

Cite one. :slightly_smiling_face: Christians, at least a lot of us, believe in a literal adversary who is the father of lies and who can present himself as an angel of light, apparently. He would be capable of presenting other kinds of counterfeits, too, I expect, to the gullible.

1 Like

I find this to be a good counter point. Conservatives like to tout testimony when it agrees with their theology. Though I must say that not all of us think we have the only correct religion. God is certainly bigger than the theological boxes we confine Him to. I find it comforting that there is compelling testimony across the world in many different cultures. At least I know I’m not crazy and if I am, I am in good company.

Vinnie

2 Likes

Joseph Smith, for one. There are millions within the LDS church who have found his testimony quite compelling. The testimony of Muhammad has been equally compelling to many.

Well, there’s this,

…and there is a lot of cognitive dissonance in Islam, too.

 

But never mind…

Much in the Bible does not stand up to rational scrutiny either. You just think it does because it is the epistemic base of your religious doctrine. Other people are just as convinced of their Holy Book and experiences with God as the conservative Christians claiming theres is error free despite not being nothing of the sort. Religious pluralism is a huge problem for exclusive Christians.

Vinnie

No, because of reality, and the reality (and quantity) of my heavenly Father’s providential interventions into my life over the last 73 years (and actually before, as well).

Indeed, you need some skin in the LDS game.

1 Like

That was not compelling. :slightly_smiling_face: If you belong to God, he’ll let you know. I hope for your sake it is gently.

To a resolute unbeliever, it wouldn’t be compelling. If you belong to God, he’ll let you know. I hope for your sake it is gently.

None of that guarantees the details of your Holy Book are accurate. It just shows God is love and is willing to accommodate your theology. The argument just doesn’t follow.

It is extremely rude an insulting when Christians think their experiences with God are the only real ones and everyone else is deceived by the devil, the prince of lies appearing as an angel of light, as one of your earlier posts insinuates.

Vinnie

1 Like

At first I thought this was a typo, and you were recommending that Dale get some skin in the LSD game. But I think I get it now. It could be a very different forum here indeed … perhaps with some noticeable improvements from some quarters? :smoking: (Not you, Dale, - stay strong!)

It was not an insinuation.