Faith Proof and Evidence - does a fact terminate a belief

May I ask you a question, a sincere one? Why isn’t your faith that the chair won’t collapse, based on past experience, adequate or acceptable to GOD as faith in him?

How is that substantially different from Dawkins’ definition:

“[Faith] is a state of mind that leads people to believe something – it does not matter what – in the total absence of supporting evidence.”

I think we could have two general pools: evidenced based beliefs and faith based beliefs. We rely on epistemology and axioms to establish the reliability of the world around us, so we can’t say for certain if objective reality is reliable. Therefore, I think it is correct, in a very narrow sense, that evidence and beliefs can coexist.

However, it is more difficult to justify faith based beliefs that contradict evidence and supernatural faith based beliefs that just happen to mimic natural processes. For example, once we discovered how lightning is made it is hard to justify Zeus physically hurling lightning bolts in a way that just happens to exactly mimic the proposed natural process.

There’s nothing that says Christian faith has to be believing something without any evidence. There is also the evidence of trustworthy testimony (Phil’s chair has been providing trustworthy testimony :slightly_smiling_face:).

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
 
Hebrews 11:1-3

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The reliability of different types of evidence is certainly a part of the discussion. I suspect that Dawkins was talking about evidence that is objective, verifiable, and demonstrable. That’s not to say that testimony isn’t evidence, only that it may not be the type of evidence Dawkins was considering.

That is not a Christian definition of faith. Many who may label themselves Christian may think that way, though, but it is not founded.

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I will plead Maggie’s testimony once again. It may not be compelling to a resolute unbeliever, but her evidence is definitely empirical and not subjective.

Or consider the other side - even if you know something to be true - does that actually take you as far as faith would? You’re all here treating certainty as something beyond faith - that in fact possibly renders faith unnecessary. But what if faith is something that takes you further than typical knowledge will? Here is an example of what I’m thinking: (not even hypothetical for many of us I’m sure!) A person is very scared of heights but is being challenged to step out on a platform so that they can … I don’t know … maybe have fun on a zip line (also terrifying to them). Several much heavier people than themselves all get out onto the platform and jump up and down on it to demonstrate how sturdy it is. They also do the zip line themselves, and it all works - no injuries, no falls or fatalities. So now it’s our terrified adventurer’s turn. She has been offered all the rational certainty in the world that none of this stuff will give way and let her fall. And yet … all that knowledge still isn’t enough. It still takes something else besides (trust? faith? conquering her fear?) to actually take the step and do it. If it were true that rational certainties are all that’s needed and suddenly everything else is superfluous, then our adventurer would have no qualms whatsoever about just ignoring her irrational fears. And yet we all know that it just isn’t that easy. Knowledge (even of the well-evidenced sort) by itself is not enough. It may well be necessary - but it isn’t always sufficient. I suggest that perhaps faith is a bit like that too.

A winning lottery ticket would be similar evidence for the belief that God helped someone win the lottery.

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The Christian faith, definitely. It is not merely about rationality – it is also about spiritual eyes and ears, or a softened heart, to use another metaphor.

All of those ‘coincidences’, in order, along with their imputed meanings tying together otherwise disjoint events, is like winning several lotteries on the same day, not to mention Maggie’s initiative compounding it.

Sometimes proof terminates a belief and sometimes it doesn’t. It depends on the person and how much cognitive dissonance he or she can bear. Look at the Book of Mormon–none of its claims can stand up to scrutiny (e.g. the claim that ancient Jews sailed to the Americas and were the ancestors of the native Americans). DNA has disproved that, but people still believe it.

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Recently I just saw an old Youtube video (2011) by Kathryn Schulz: (On being wrong).

In it she asks people in the audience what it feels like to be wrong. They gave her the expected sort of answers: embarrassing, humiliating, etc.

Then she responded: You all just answered the wrong question. That’s what it feels like when you discover that you’re wrong. Actually, just being wrong feels pretty good … in fact … it feels exactly like being right!

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Without the probability calculations it is difficult to verify what you are claiming.

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As I’ve said, someone else’s testimony, no matter how remarkable, is not compelling evidence to the resolute unbeliever (which you are, at this point, anyway). Calculating the odds is really irrelevant, because if one testimony is not compelling, forty-seven won’t be either, no matter how astronomically improbable any particular ‘coincidence’, or set or sequence of them, may be.

(One was all it took to be encouraging to Glenn Morton.)

There are compelling testimonies within other religions that I suspect you would not be convinced by.

The odds are absolutely relevant, as is the order of prediction and observation. If I said that I prayed to God to get heads when I flipped a coin and got heads after 4 tosses, would you find that compelling? The order of prediction and observation is vital as well. Extremely improbable events happen every minute of every day, so it isn’t as compelling when an event is given significance after it has already occurred. This is somewhat related to the Sharpshooter fallacy.

I agree, the rules of probability and statistics are valid. But who they happen to is another matter.

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
 
Proverbs 16:33

 
You need to have some skin in the game, and as of now that hasn’t happened to you, and I will not be able to argue you into it.

Cite one. :slightly_smiling_face: Christians, at least a lot of us, believe in a literal adversary who is the father of lies and who can present himself as an angel of light, apparently. He would be capable of presenting other kinds of counterfeits, too, I expect, to the gullible.

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I find this to be a good counter point. Conservatives like to tout testimony when it agrees with their theology. Though I must say that not all of us think we have the only correct religion. God is certainly bigger than the theological boxes we confine Him to. I find it comforting that there is compelling testimony across the world in many different cultures. At least I know I’m not crazy and if I am, I am in good company.

Vinnie

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Joseph Smith, for one. There are millions within the LDS church who have found his testimony quite compelling. The testimony of Muhammad has been equally compelling to many.

Well, there’s this,

…and there is a lot of cognitive dissonance in Islam, too.

 

But never mind…