Evolutionary Creationists should distance themselves more clearly from deism

I add thanks for a careful laying out of your views, Chris. I only want to question specifically your use of Job (though in general it seems to me you’ve supported secondary causation by your post rather than any limitation of the scope of providence).

The question of Satan’s involvement (as a supernatural quasi-divinity rather than a mere human) is an interesting introduction into the discussion - potentially confusing, but I think helpful. First, some caveats about using Job as a source: of course it is a poem/theological debate rather than a straight narrative, but I’d say that the “friends” are presenting dodgy theology, and therefore when God is an active character, he is presenting good theology (in other words, it was perfectly valid for you to cite it). I’d add another caveat: that I’d not want to push the accuracy of the divine-council imagery up to the line in such a dramatic conflict narrative: but yet we may assume that the inspired writer had the relationship between God and spiritual powers right.

Nevertheless, I’d contradict you and say that Satan is not given carte blanche to afflict Job. He’s presented as a “government agent”, albeit malicious, and can do nothing at all to nature until granted specific permission, which in both cycles is strictly limited (can’t touch Job’s person first time, then can’t take his life). I believe that role as God’s “secondary agent” is emphasised by his controlling God’s own weapon “the fire of God from the sky.” He is not an independent operator.

the fact that we would call some of these forces “natural” is neither here nor there: they are presented, together with control of Sabean and Chaldean raiders, as agents working out the aims of a purposeful being, Satan - and that by direct permission of God.

The real killer is that the prologue is “for our ears only” - neoither Job nor his friends are aware of it, or suspect Satan’s involvement. The whole thrust of the rest of the debate is not whether God has done this to Job, but why, the inadequate “blame” theology being the main contender of the friends, and blank incomprehension with anger and a little faith that of Job.

Most important, when God appears in theophany, his general word to Job is not “Don’t blame me for Satan or nature”, but “Who are you to question what I do?” - and he appears to Job out of the same kind of storm we saw Satan wielding purposefully in ch1. God, of course, spends a few chapters boasting of his meticulous control of what? Of nature.

Finally, the narrator tells us in ch42 that God comforted and consoled Job over “all the trouble Yahweh had brought upon him” - neither Satan, nor impersonal forces of nature, getting any mention whatsoever.

Now in this case, Satan is clearly a secondary cause, and unlike nature one with his own malevolent angle on things: yet he is permitted to do only what God allows and, we find, eventually ends up fulfilling a deep spiritual purpose for Job as if he were an instrument in God’s hands.

As a comment on secondary causes, then, I’d say Job certainly affirms them, at least in the very special example of Satan. But even in that case, the secondary cause is an instrumental one under God.'s providence. The latter chapters of Job also affirm many natural processes as similarly instrumental and under God’s specific control.

I think the argument for or against meticulous providence depends on more general considerations such as God’s omnipotence and omniscience, and some guidance in Scripture.

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@JustAnotherLutheran

I would like to bring the discussion back to the point of the original question.

It’s perfectly fine to state one’s preference … but to say that Biblically, it is impossible to accept Front-Loading … well, we can see that this is an over-statement, right?

A theological overstatement, yes. But primarily in the sense that nothing is impossible for God and the majority of things about God are unknown to us. There could be scientific reasons for saying it’s an impossibility and those must be respected. I’ll leave it at that for now. Is that a helpful clarification?

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@JustAnotherLutheran

Oh yes… there could be scientific reasons … and the validity of that claim can and should be tested… with the understanding that most of the burden of whether Front-Loading is possible or not is linked to one’s premises of what God can do.

So how does one say “scientifically it’s impossible” … if the God one is considering has the power to do supra-natural things?

Once again, the debate about Front-Loading comes down to whether or not God exists…

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Being a theologian, I am out of my area as to how one rules out a hypotheses in the astronomical sciences. If I were forced to sally forth at gunpoint and answer your question I might suggest that an astronomer could rule out/falsify the specially created asteroid if there were an explanation that better fit the larger context/explained a wider group of data findings/fit better with other observations and astronomic frameworks/etc. This sort of speculation is the stuff (and vocation) of science and scientists. Contrariwise, speculation is not the stuff of theology. And theological speculation it indeed is to say that God specially created (“poofed into existence, ex nihilo, several million years ago” to be extraordinarily theological) an asteroid to wipe out the dinosaurs. What is not theological speculation is to say that God has created all things and governs all things. Even if we don’t know the reality of all things. Even if we cannot comprehend God’s governance of anything outside our salvation. Are you tracking with me or have I wandered afield?

Please explain why this is a necessary culmination in your mind? I’m not saying it’s wrong or that I don’t agree. What I’m saying, by asking, is that I neither grasp your meaning completely nor understand your motive behind saying it, and am curious. And how does this tie into the subject of the thread?

Thanks for reading and asking! These conversations take plenty of time and time is precious so I hope I’m not wasting any of yours.

I also wanted to say, every time I read your username I think I’m talking to Garth Brooks. It’s a compliment :wink:

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Old habits die hard, though.

This, in spite of the fact that the official Biologos position (God’s continuing involvement, which I happen to agree with 100%) has been much discussed in this very thread.

You seem to have a hard time letting go of your long-ago discussions with Giberson and Falk, Eddie. Let it rest. There is a balm in Gilead.

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I happen to prefer a particular position because it produces less dissonance between scientific and theological perspectives, not to mention the perspective of everyday life (in which I and others make significant decisions).

The only person who seems bothered in this discussion is not me, Eddie. It would be… well, just give it some reflection, and you’ll figure it out.

Advent blessings,
Chris

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Hi Jon

I like summary of Job, but if I may quibble with a couple of points.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:268, topic:18370”]
God, of course, spends a few chapters boasting of his meticulous control of what? Of nature.
[/quote]

Which can be accomplished without any, “active” participation on God’s part.

Yes, God used Satan to inspire the Sabeans and Chaldeans to evil acts. Satan, apparently, also caused a great wind to wreak havoc and inflict painful sores on Job. The first set of acts are compatible with how we typically see Satan working, on men’s hearts/souls or motivations. The second set of acts aren’t. So, the text stating that the trouble brought upon Job by God Himself is not an endorsement of secondary causes, but probably more a literary device used to advance the theological narrative.[quote=“Jon_Garvey, post:268, topic:18370”]
The latter chapters of Job also affirm many natural processes as similarly instrumental and under God’s specific control.
[/quote]

But of course, God’s control of the natural processes can be accomplished without secondary causes.

I agree. My only point is that God’s omnipotence and omniscience are upheld just as strongly with only primary causes as with secondary included.

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@JustAnotherLutheran

Well, I have to say, I can’t tell if you are explaining or asking something. To me, it is irrelevant whether God conceived and directed the creation of the Dino-killing asteroid at Creation … or if he “poofed” it into existence 65 million years ago. It is only important that people allow other folks to embrace either scenario.

If a person believes in a God that has considered all aspects of human freewill, and still wants to accomplish all parts of his will … I see no reason to prevent God from executing an incredibly complex point of Creation … where all these things can be accomplished where Natural Law can work … (Front-Loading all the natural law items) and then at various points … hinge points one might call them… God does something miraculous.

The only thing that would prevent this analysis is if you just don’t believe in the existence of God … or that kind of God.

Once you accept that kind of God… how on earth are you going to argue that God can’t Front-Load all the Natural Law items? This is not a proposal to get rid of miracles… it’s a proposal to show how God can do both.

Hi Richard

The summary of Job was, of course, very much that, specifically to answer Chris’s points. It has known shortcomings! In hope of my not misunderstanding your quibbles…

(a) [quote=“Richard_Wright1, post:277, topic:18370”]
Which can be accomplished without any, “active” participation on God’s part.
[/quote]

“That which was to be demonstrated” was control by whatever means, active or not. Lawlike processes are controlled by making the laws sufficiently meticulous. I’d argue that there are good scientific grounds for doubting that what we understand by the laws is sufficient to accomplish what God claims in Job, in that by their nature they are very low in information: they are simple governing principles, not meticulous algorithms. If they were, of course, then the theological problem to be accommodated would be rigid physical determinism.

(b) [quote=“Richard_Wright1, post:277, topic:18370”]
The first set of acts are compatible with how we typically see Satan working, on men’s hearts/souls or motivations. The second set of acts aren’t. So, the text stating that the trouble brought upon Job by God Himself is not an endorsement of secondary causes, but probably more a literary device used to advance the theological narrative.
[/quote]

If such a “literary” device means a straight contradiction of the prologue, I’m not sure what it achieves. Are we saying that because we don’t normally think of Satan controlling storms, the writer was on a pure flight of fancy? After all, the Bible clearly states that God controls storms at least sometimes, and no Bible writer (or anyone in ancient times) believed that they were independent of God. We can, of course, say that we now know better owing to science, but I doubt that’s what you mean, or else using Job for or against an argument on providence would be a waste of time anyway.

(c) [quote=“Richard_Wright1, post:277, topic:18370”]
But of course, God’s control of the natural processes can be accomplished without secondary causes.
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean - natural processes are secondary causes definitionally. For God to control “nature” without secondary causation is occasionalism - is that what you mean? Job’s concept, incidentally, reflects many other biblical treatments of nature such as in the blessings/curses in torah (Leviticus), in which God’s management of nature is for good or harm to Israel dependent on their obedience to the covenant: it’s hard to see those processes (weather, crops, health, etc) as other than secondary causes governed instrumentally by God “in real time”.

Those “primary causes” again - I don’t think you’re an occasionalist, so I guess you may be treating “laws” as primary causes (whereas standard usage is God as First cause, and “natural” processes including laws as secondary causes).

If that’s what you mean (from my reading of your previous posts) then for God to set up nature so that it infallibly achieves detailed creative purposes by natural laws and initial conditions would indeed protect God’s omiscience and omnipotence, in the way Leibniz preferred: “by a perpetual motion”. I guess that would settle any difference with Chris, in that it would pretty well require every subatomic particle to follow the preset course to the predermined outcome.

But to me that is only achieved at the cost of the God who is not only transcendent, but immanent in creation as Father, caring moment by moment for each and every thing he has made (from galaxy to quark). Though God is eternal, his presence and activity are experienced in time, and there’s no good reason I can think of to privilege the “moment of creation” over the rest of time for his active involvement.

So I don’t see what is achieved by thinking that God set up the universe so that the blow aimed at my head would miss me by natural laws ordained at creation, in response to my prayers, rather than by active concurrence with those natural processes at the time.

What I would see as theologically advantageous to comprehending the interface between time and eternity, the finite with the infinite, is that God’s entire interaction with the world is one act of creation in eternity, from his point of view, experienced at various occasions from the Big Bang onwards by his creatures. In that scenario, the attribution of everything in nature to “natural laws” seems a bit limiting, and unncessary - as as well as exceeding, as far as I can tell, the capabilities of what we know about natural laws. Laws are mathematical abstractions from observed regularities, not detailed programs for creating contingencies.

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I was doing both. I was explaining “what is not theological speculation” (e.g. an individuals knowledge/certainty of his or her salvation) and I was asking if you were “tracking with me”.

Speaking as a theologian, there is neither a thing preventing or requiring God one way or the other insofar as his omnipotence is concerned. However, there is good revealed reason to look with skepticism on front loading. It does echo slightly (if I’m hearing it correctly; critique me on this) of deism and the thought that God set up the universe like a top at the outset and has let it spin its course with a handful of intervening moments. It’s more the characteristic for Scripture to speak of a God who claims immanence in his responsibility for everything. Scientifically, this (transcendence view) is unverifiable. Front loading - whilst not impossible for God and more appealing to Western thought - sounds more like theology influenced by the Enlightenment/modernism (this is not to invalidate it but only to point out similarities) rather than a theology influenced by the Bible’s way of talking about God and which allows the holding-in-tension of God’s transcendence and our human experience (including scientific knowledge).

And it is in that regard - as a proposal - that I can appreciate what you’ve said (it is understandable), agree with certain valid points (God can do whatever he wants because, apparently, he’s God), and say that it is not wholly satisfying (smacks of failed modernity and, perhaps, does not distance us far enough from deism).

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@JustAnotherLutheran,

I reject this suggestion that it “sounds” like Deism utterly.

As long as God interacts with his faithful in real time (answering prayers, influencing human decisions with his Divine Will rather than with natural neural causation, etc.) … performing such “supra-natural actions” as he needs to in real time … it is as far away from Deism as the Pope is.

George

I respect your vehemence, hope we can continue in cordiality, and suggest that it would better help me appreciate your assertion if you could give me scriptural evidences.

@JustAnotherLutheran

My use of the word “utterly” was to indicate the vigor of my opposition to the idea… and should not be interpreted as some loss of cordiality between us.

Deism has no place for God to interact with humanity. The Mission Statements of BioLogos specifically criticize and oppose Deism and make it clear that BioLogos is not promoting Deism.

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We would all agree, at least, that deism is unbodastic, then?:sunglasses:

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