Evolutionary Creationists should distance themselves more clearly from deism

Let’s ask Eddie his identity 500 times a day.

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Three perfect statements from the “Our Mission” page, addressing various threads being discussed on the board today…

http://biologos.org/about-us/our-mission/

  1. We believe that God is directly involved in the lives of people today through acts of redemption, personal transformation, and answers to prayer.

  2. We believe that God typically sustains the world using faithful, consistent processes that humans describe as “natural laws.” Yet we also affirm that God works outside of natural law in supernatural events, including the miracles described in Scripture. In both natural and supernatural ways, God continues to be directly involved in creation and in human history.

  3. We believe that the diversity and interrelation of all life on earth are best explained by the God-ordained process of evolution with common descent. Thus, evolution is not in opposition to God, but a means by which God providentially achieves his purposes. Therefore, we reject ideologies that claim that evolution is a purposeless process or that evolution replaces God.

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Hello Eddie,

Not requiring a response, just a couple of thoughts from you last response.

Not much to quibble with, other than the extent to which you see EC leaders’ views hindering the everyday evangelical from considering evolution.

Should it be a major theme? If one has faith in the biblical god, then the fact that we are here means we were predetermined, at least to the opponents/dissenters. So why the fear in seriously studying evolution to see if it is in fact the way God chose to produce us? To me it’s putting the cart before the horse to demand a version of evolution that appeals to their theological senses before they even understand it. If there are, “random” elements in it, then next course of action should be to do the work of fitting that into their conceptions of God’s sovereignty, and not avoiding what they don’t want to discover.

You would think that Biologos’ intended audience would be soft dissenters, but interestingly, looking at whose testimonies are put on the site, it seems more the YEC crowd.

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That is exactly the point. Instead of assuming our theological conclusions are correct and scientific facts must submit to our theology, we must determine the scientific facts and then examine whether or not we need to change our theology. Have we learned nothing from Galileo?

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Hi Jon,

Thanks for sharing the anecdote. My experience on this side of the pond is that Ken Ham’s arguments carry great weight among my YEC friends. At the same time I have never heard the 2 arguments offered by your youth worker vocalized.

I am still planning to respond in the next day or two to Eddie’s posts, and I appreciate his continuing patience.

Chris

Eddie, you knew, early on in our ‘conversation’ that, even tho I consider myself still a Catholic (even to the extent of valuing my role as Eucharistic minister) you might say that I am, philosophically, more attuned to Unitarian beliefs. And yet you have not castigated me for inconsistency–not on this forum, at least. As I mentioned previously, I did stop teaching adult Confirmation classes because my personal beliefs might “cause scandal” amongst conservative Catholics, but I did have quite a few students who told me I helped reconcile their previous problems with Original Sin and the orthodoxy of the Catechism. I think the BioLogos cadre are not given as much freedom as I have had. You should be less critical of them.

Whether or not God ensures a specific outcome for evolution, or, on the contrary He allows some contingency so that He can be ‘surprised’ and thus avoid boredom, this has little effect on my worship of Him. This rather ‘juvenile’ idea appealed to me as a teenager and it still does. At least I rather prefer it to a God who makes wagers with Satan on how many tragedies Job will endure before he stops worshiping his Creeator.

And I do wish you a most blessed Christmas, and happy New Year, especially in these scary times
Al Leo

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In thinking through some of the concerns @Eddie raised,it occurred to me that some of these issues may result from BioLogos publishing two different kinds of material. On the one hand, as an organization with an agenda/mission and a belief statement, they publish material that is from their organization’s general evolutionary creationist perspective. On the other hand as a “place for dialogue” they publish a diversity of voices on a whole host of topics and those voices may or may fully align with the organization’s belief statement. But, the fact that the conversation is taking place is part of the furthering the organization’s mission of fostering dialogue.

So you can read the perspectives of Southern Baptists, or Roman Catholics, or open theists, or Reformed Protestants who don’t see eye to eye with each other. At one point there was a white paper in the archives by an atheist. Maybe it is not always clear what material is what, and often completely antithetical views are presented in the same blog series with BioLogos the organization not picking a side. I can see how some Evangelicals would find that uncomfortable, especially with the polarized subculture the way it is, where it seems sometimes the number one Evangelical hobby is publicly calling out other Evangelicals for forsaking the gospel or disgracing Jesus.

The problem with needing to constantly think about “distancing” oneself from viewpoints that one does not completely endorse or share is that it shuts down dialogue. It takes away space for testing ideas. Before one “distances” oneself, one evaluates and judges. And there is certainly a place for evaluation and judgment. But if BioLogos is trying to create a safe space for dialogue, then it can’t all of a sudden morph into a battlefield or a courtroom on its unsuspecting guests. There is a certain amount of smiling (or grimacing) and nodding that is going to take place when you are listening to people from diverse perspectives, but if you want them to keep talking, you can’t always be on the offensive looking for fights.

It has been clear to me reading comments on blog posts that individual “BioLogos people” don’t agree with everything that has ever been posted and plenty of them make their concerns and disagreements known. I assume that lots of times other people are not raising their minor areas of disagreement in order to keep focus on areas of agreement. I don’t assume because an individual did not distance themselves from someone else’s published opinion that we should therefore assume it’s a tacit endorsement.

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You’re right about that. Meanwhile there’s very little going on in the way of objective research and testing ideas.

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@Eddie, as you know, I am 100% behind the idea that God guides every little twitch of the Evolutionary process.

Take my advice… you can get respectable people to more willingly give you their views if you identify yourself… instead of being this anonymous “Rogue One” flying around the BioLogos biosphere…

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@Eddie should memorize these two sentences! Well done, @Christy !

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Hi Eddie, it has been a while, and its good to see you. I agree that its a good idea to let it go, because you will not get an answer, because I think there is no answer. God spins the evolutionary wheel, which turns on its own and churns out species and remarkable beauty. At the same time, God ensures certain outcomes, like the emergence of human beings. The planets and asteroids move on their paths according to God’s laws of motion, and at the same time, God guides their every move. I chose my own way along my life’s thorny road, but God is with me, and I can feel His protection.

These contradictions might not make “sense” but they actually fit in well with everything we know about how the universe, life and human beings work. Why don’t we marvel at the mystery, express our awe at the beauty of every aspect of creation, and when it comes to understanding exactly how God exercises his providential care over the Earth, the oak tree and me, just let it go.

Merry Christmas to you.

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Indeed. Why not?

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@Eddie… I tell you what … I think there is a way you can have a conversation with EC leaders that you’ve never considered!

Let them wear a Darwin mask! I think it would finally put you and EC leaders on equal footing…and I’m sure your conversation with them would be quite thought provoking!

I have already developed a prototype poster to promote the discussions!

Chris ty, I’d buy a dozen tickets… wouldn’t you?

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I see he is holding his endoscope.

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This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

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