Evolution, Creation, and The Sting of Death (Part 3) | The BioLogos Forum

“Indeed, invoking an infinity of unseen universes to explain the unusual features of the one we do see is just as ad hoc as invoking an unseen Creator. The multiverse theory may be dressed up in scientific language, but in essence it requires the same leap of faith.”
— Paul Davies, A Brief History of the Multiverse

@Patrick, scientists, even atheist scientists like Hawing, take leaps of faith. It is then unfair to deny creationists to do the same. Interestingly, the multiverse theory also requires somehow the creation of something out of nothing. We don’t see it, but it must exist.

@Patrick @piopio

… good points, piopio. And no matter how many layers of “multiverses” within “multiverses” or infinitely many regressive layers of ‘explainable’ causality one goes back, none of it ever reaches the question of why any of it should exist at all. The ultimate question still hovers there tantalizingly always still there on that distant horizon no matter how far along we succeed in moving toward it. It is interesting that each new ‘discovery’ (if we may charitably apply that label to such speculations) of some new causal layer prior to what was understood before is supposed to be the one that is finally upsetting to theology as if theology was in the cosmology business.

Everybody should dream and imagine all kinds of theories. It is one of the things that make us humans - that we can come up with abstract thoughts and then use reasoning to shape them. The multiverse theory is one of them. A this point it is just interesting dreaming. It gets you thinking though. It can’t really be taken seriously until some aspect of it can be testable. It has to make some prediction that eventually be observed. Just saying that that there are an infinite number of universes, so our isn’t special, does really tell us much about our universe, if anything.

I think creationist should do the same. But they seem to always come up with the same answer all the time to every question. That might be the right answer to all questions but it never seems satisfactory to me. My response seems always to say “dig deeper, there might be truth to be found somewhere in the dreams.”

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@Patrick

Amen to that, Patrick!

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@Patrick,

Yes, Hawking wrote a good book with many excellent illustrations, even though he has some strange ideas about God.

In some sense you seem to have a double standard for science and theology. The way science is supposed to work is we accept the current state of knowledge always aware that it not final and it can be improved upon and replaced. For theology you seem to take the stand that it cannot be right so it must be replaced, even though you cannot say how.

The beauty of science is that it is constantly looking for new answers. The problem with Darwinian evolution is that it has not basically changed since the time of Darwin and it is not looking for new answers because it is still defending the old ones.

For me theology also needs to look for new answers. Theology is about change, the Bible is about change, the Church is about change. Love is the answer, but who is to say that we fully understand God, humans, and love.

“Science” is caught up in the physical sciences, as if we solve the problem of how the universe functions, we will solve all of our human problems, which is manifestly false. This to me is the most serious problem with science, that it is so engrossed with its own problems , that it ignores the problems of the human world.

Theology or the Church is often caught up in spiritual problems, as if we understand how God functions, we will solve all of our human problems, which is also wrong. The most serious problem that the church has is that it seems to believe the lie about warfare between science and faith.

The fact is people need science and the church and philosophy too. Life is indeed messy, not because it is imperfect, but because it is complicated. It does not fall into the simple answers we would like, but the complex answers that make us think and work.

In ancient times philosophy governed science. The primary reason that they believed that the earth was the center of the universe was because Aristotle taught this. Science came into its own when it insisted that humans trust their senses and minds to see that the earth is not the center of the universe. Scientific proof is evidence based on observation, not on pure rationality.

The problem with your statement about apparent design id that it goes against the basis of science that knowledge must be based primarily on observation, not ideas. The problem with science today is that it seems captured by the idea that science is to be governed not by observation and experimentation, but by the idea that the universe is not rational, and has no structure and design, because it is material.

Now you say that design may be false, so what do we do? We look for collaborating evidence. You tried to present some in the form of entropy and quantum physics, which don’t really work. They are part of the design that makes the universe work and provides the basis for life and reality.

On the other hand symmetry is a basic form of design, both human and natural. We also see how “symmetry” is playing an important role in physics as we try to understand the quantum structure of our world.

Thus there is every evidence that symmetry is real, not just apparent, because it is backed up by observation, theory, and experimentation. Thus it seems to me we have every reason to think that rational design is real, and just not apparent.

If that does not agree with your world view, then maybe you need to do some more thinking as you say.

Too much thinking is actually a problem we all face in modern life. Random thoughts flying into our minds all day and even while we sleep. Trying to have no thoughts takes practice but is very peaceful when you can make it happen. And you actually then can focus better on the world around you. There is nothing better than sitting on park bench and observing the world. My creativity is maximized at those moments.

Oh, where were we? I lost track. How about you pose a entirely new question and we debate it? btw, your book arrived today. Hope to read it soon.

@Patrick

Good reading.

@Patrick
Too much thinking is actually a problem we all face in modern life.

You make a good point.

Things are clearer when we let nature be nature, people be people, and God be God, instead of confusing the three.

I find stillness - no thought - to be most aware of the present moment.

@Patrick

You have failed to respond to my comment above. I was willing to overlook this if you were not willing to respond to a reasonable response to your position and wanted to terminate the conversation, but that is not the case.

Please respond to what I said.

Denying the ability of our senses to understand reality is overthinking.

To claim or imply anything else is false. When Creationists claim that they cannot trust the science of evolution, because it might be wrong, they are doing the same thing you are doing. When others question science because it may be wrong, they are doing the same thing.

Science is not perfect and neither is theology. We need some healthy skepticism with both, but to deny that we can trust our senses to understand reality is false.

To be still does not mean not to be aware. What it means is that we do not try to fit our awareness into some sort of rational predisposition. When we are still, we enjoy life, we enjoy reality. It is not the chaotic reality that you tried to make it be before.

When we are still we enjoy life, we enjoy reality. We know that life is good and fulfilling, not the meaningless chaos that Dawkins is trying to sell.

When we are still we allow nature to be the beautiful entity that it is. We allow people with all our limitations to be the fantastically potentially wonderful beings we can be and are. We allow God to be Who God is, a caring Father, Who loves us for who we are with all our faults, Who wants us to love ourselves, love others, and love God for Who God is.

When I am still and fully present, it becomes clear to me that although life (and the universe) doesn’t have a purpose, my life can have purpose and meaning. My purpose can be just breath and observe the world for my 100 years of existence (I am an optimist) or my purpose can be anything I want it to be. I take a very narrow approach to my life purpose - I refine it everyday, sometimes several times a day. Right now my purpose in life is to try to explain my purpose in life to you in as few words as possible.

@Patrick

Fortunately the purpose of life as found in the reality of others animate and inanimate is to make your life possible and fulfilled. It is too bad that you do not appreciate this.

I am certainly appreciative to all those who came before me and all those who live now that make my life meaningful and purposeful.

You begin with a presupposition, which has not been justified by any thought or fact, that is not based on reality is treated as reality. That is exactly what overthinking is.

I was talking about the functional state my brain was in when I made that statement. At that time, I was still, random thoughts (rapidly firing brain synapse) were subsided, and I was very aware of everything around me. I wasn’t justifying (or judging) or analyzing or critiquing any thought, the opposite of over thinking. I was present.

@Patrick

It seems to me that you are making the same kind of statement as this:
Although 2 + 2 = 4 is not true for everyone else (the universe), it is true for me.

Not at all, 2+2 = 4 in the whole universe, whether I existed or not. It is a fundamental truth of mathematics. But to bring it down from the level of mental abstraction, and to figure out if it is true in the real world, I am going to have to know what are we are adding together. 2 walnuts, 2 orthogonal wavefunctions, 2 whats? For example 2 neutrons + 2 neutrons = 4 protons + 4 electrons + 4 antineutrinos.

Can you do math on nilhilo?

Does nilhilo + nilhilo = 2 nilhilo ?

Can you divide anything by nilhilo anything/nilhilo = undefined

nilhilo/nilhilo = 1 ?

Seems like nilhilo behaves like 0 in the real universe

@Patrick

I’m afraid that you are mistaken again. Math is not based on abstractions. It is based on relationships.

2x + 2x always equals 4x. 2x + 2y does not equate.

2 x 0 + 2 x 0 does equal 4 x 0 or 0.

You can’t jump to conclusions as you have done. You need to think things through to find out what they really mean.

We know what nihilo means and how it computes. God is not nihilo. God creates the universe out of nihilo. God turns chaos into cosmos. God is the reason why there is something rather than nothing, because God gives meaning and purpose to the universe and our lives. God makes whole that which is broken, esp. humans.

Some people want to pretend that God does not exist and thus claim that cosmos is really chaos or nihilo. Some people want to pretend that God does not exist and so they claim that Life has no meaning or purpose or Life is nihilo. Some people want to pretend that God does not exist and thus turn wrong, selfishness, nihilo into what is natural and acceptable.

I know that I exist and life all around me exists. But so far in 50+ years of investigating science, math, and nature, if I was required to offer a mathematical equation of what you describe above, it would have to be God = √-1