Eddie,
My point was (and is) that “scientists” know a lot more than you are willing to acknowledge. Science know a lot about of how life of Earth originated and how it could originate on other worlds in the vast universe. All the pieces are there. And we (scientists and interested individuals) are learning new things every day. Did you watch the NASA press briefing on liquid water on Mars? More understanding. Taking a Bayesian probability approach: given liquid water on Mars over billions of years, what is the probability that a single life form exists or existed on Mars?
The answers now is much greater than zero.
Because Christians aren’t in the habit of killing people of other religions or people of no religion. But the world isn’t all nice folks. People who mistakenly put labels on other people can get them killed. You wouldn’t what that to happen, would you? SO please be careful of the label atheist, it is a dangerous terminology to use in cyberspace.
I didn’t reject God because of 911. 911 made me realize that beliefs could kill. Maybe I was naive, as I should have known that people were killing in the name of God (gods) for as long gods have been around. My naivety prior to 911, was to think that as long as I stayed in the US or western Europe/Japan religious fanaticism didn’t exist. I like many others in the defense/law enforcement/security couldn’t conceive of a 911 attack in NYC, even after the WTC bombing of 1993. So after 911, my personal beliefs didn’t change. But my looking at others did. Chat room discussions, hate speech, incitement to violence became very important to me. The line between freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and personal/family/nation safety and security blurred.
no just gave up heaven. Recall that I poofed hell out of existence at age seven but held on to the concept of heaven until 911. Giving up on heaven was more retaliatory to the terrorists than anything else.
God for me was never personal so giving him up never really occurred. Cultural Catholic remember.
As for the violence, of course no here will ever threaten violence on me or my family or you. But Biologos is read worldwide, almost all countries, including Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia. ISIS reads it too. The information here is not secure. It doesn’t take much for some religious fantastic to send “jihad” messages around the world to go after you or me or the physical address of Biologos. We might be safe in our little corner of America but others could be harmed because of our words. Ever think of that?
When I expressed my ‘Original Blessing’ views in presentations to the adult Confirmation classes in our Catholic parish, I prefaced it with the warning that it was unorthodox. Over a period of a half dozen years, I found perhaps a half dozen confirmandees who found Original Blessing as an intellectually satisfying way to understand their Christian Faith. For the other 95% (and the other instructors) it was more difficult to reconcile what they understood about human sinfulness and the need for redemption. So I resigned my role as Presenter, lest the harm I unwittingly would do to ‘simple faith’ would outweigh the good done to ‘enlightened faith’. The case of the former Dominican priest, Mathew Fox, might be a case in point.
Al Leo
In the United States, Freedom of Speech is not without limits. What anyone says in the public square, which includes web sites, chat rooms, and blogs even under the cloak of being anonymous can easily cross into hate speech, incitement to commit violence, harassment, endangerment and crimes against people’s dignity and integrity.
What I believe Eddie is trying to say in regards to science is that because of our collective knowledge in the the realm, we are coming to more possible scenarios for how life began. But with the way your write, Patrick, it’s as if you saw the first life form firsthand — when really all that’s happening is that were finding “possible scenarios”. And like, Eddie said, if the origin-of-life question is so slam-dunk-black-and-white obvious, Mr. Dawkins would be the first to run it in the faces of every person of faith… I haven’t yet seen him do this.
Patrick, you wrote “Beliefs can kill” — are you saying that you yourself don’t have beliefs? or are you saying that “beliefs other than mine are dangerous”…? If it’s the former then I would say that’s highly illogical, and if it’s the latter I would challenge you that the track record for “murders done in the name of religion” and “murders done in the name of EVERY OTHER situation” is not to be compared.
You wrote, “People have been killing in the name of God (gods) since there was gods”… When an atheist says this they typically mean supernaturally entities. But when a Christian says this, what they mean by “gods” are things (or persons) you worship. So yes I would agree with you. People have always been killing in the name of gods: in the name of wealth, in the name of power, in the name of lust etc. You act as if this is revolutionary?
Also you say you don’t want to be labelled an “atheist” because you’re afraid some Jihadist might see your name and attack you? Yet simultaneously you openly mock Jihadists, and their beliefs, on the same site that you’re afraid to be called an “atheist”… How in the world does this make any coherent sense? BioLogos is an openly Christian site: why would Jihadist be “sneaking around” trying to find an atheist, when BioLogos clearly says CHRISTIAN? Do you think Jihadists have a preference over killing atheists rather than Christians?
-Tim
Eddie and I disagrees on how much we already know about the origins of life on Earth, Solar System and the rest of the universe. We both agree that we don’t know enough. Both of us are not experts in this field but we both read the latest results and theories on the subject. I think the scientific discovery in this area has been remarkable. And new results keep on coming at a faster pace. So when I say we know the origins of life what I am really saying is that a broad general recipe or scenario or high level processes are well enough understood that a claim like life comes about in liquid water when there is amino acids in abundance with an abundant energy source. Is that overstating the origin of life, I don’t think so. On the other hand, Eddie thinks otherwise. If I understand him correctly, there has to be a place for a creator in the process. That is the crux of the differences, I think the processes are only natural process involved. Neither of us know for sure - yet.
I am saying that the world is a dangerous place. I don’t think, for safety reasons only, that folks should advertise their religious beliefs, both physically and virtually. A cross tatoo on your forehead, will not help you survive in muslim country and would make you a target even in this country. A cross on a facebook page is not a good idea (in my opinion). Personal security is important.
Regarding being labeled an atheist, that is the deadliest label possible. Being an atheist is a death sentence in 17 countries. For personal safety reasons, I cringe when folks here label me an atheist regardless whether it is factual or not. It is purely a safety and security issue for me. Maybe it is being overly cautious but I travel a lot so I learn to be low key. Don’t stick out. Blend into the crowd.
I really don’t openly mock religions especially Islam. Why Islam - because they have more crazies. I don’t draw the prophet, If there was an Islamic site like Biologos, you wouldn’t see me posting on it for one reason - personal/family safety and security.
Sure I may be able to get away with more on a Christian site. I might poke a little bit more here and there, but then something else kicks in - my morals and ethics and the way I try to treat people. I probe but I don’t cross a disrespectful line. If I do hear feedback that I offend, I apologize and correct my offense by deleting/changing my comments.
So now you know that I don’t like labeling anybody an atheist for personal safety reasons only. I have no doubt that you would just respect that even if you thought it was silly. But the impression I get from Eddie, is that I should be willing to “take the heat”.
Biologos is world wide. Don’t underestimate who radicals will target. Charlie Hebro? The standoff in a Kosher deli? A bomb at the Boston Marathon? This week the Pope visited Washington, NYC and Philadelphia. Security was the largest effort in US history. But this week, the Pope is gone, security is relaxed. Where is the vulnerabilities now? A few Catholic churches with children in them?
No, both are unbelievers and from the Koran, it is their obligation to kill non-believers.
You wrote, “I don’t think, for safety reasons only, that folks should advertise their religious beliefs.”
While I can’t speak for every single religion out there, I just want to let you know that telling a Christian not to advertise their beliefs (though I know you meant well) is basically telling them, don’t be a Christian. In the book of Acts, new-found Christians like Stephen were martyred, as well as hundreds more that came later, in the Roman Colosseum — Jesus himself says “You will be persecuted.” So it’s not something you do lightly, or for safety reasons.
You wrote, “No, both are unbelievers and from the Koran, it is their obligation to kill non-believers.”
This is exactly my point. You say you don’t want be “labelled” because you fear for you life, yet you are openly making posts and comments, on a Christian site. As far as I can tell you already put yourself in the Red Zone, for claiming some affiliation (or agreement, or discussion) with the “unbelievers according to the Koran and Muslims” … why are you not in danger right now?
You wrote, “I really don’t openly mock religions especially Islam. Why Islam - because they have more crazies.”
Fair enough. My phrase “openly mock” came off a bit strong, and for that I apologize. But you did say “WTC attack” and called the people that were involved in that attack “terrorists”… how is that not, in some way, defaming Muslim religion (even if you chose to word yourself in “politest of terms”)…?
-Tim