Eternal suffering in hell isn't in the Bible

Faith & Science Conversation
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The Bible clearly teaches annihilation of the body and soul. Eternal conscious torment typically latches onto a few very hyperbolic passages from some of the most symbolic places in scripture. But when you show what those verses means it clears it up and they have no solid response for it.

For example take these verses.

Revelation 14:9-11
New American Standard Bible
Doom for Worshipers of the Beast
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

  • At first glance it seems like it’s a done deal. I mean it says he will be tormented with fire and brimstone forever and their smoke will always rise and they will have no rest”

But the question that must be asked is this a literal passage or a symbolic passage? In hell are they literally tormented with fire? Is the fire really in the form of a lake? Is it lava? It seems heavy on the symbolism and so that begs the question is that type of speech found anywhere else in the Bible? It is.

Isaiah 34:6-10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.

  • Revelations is copying the symbolic war speech that was well known to jews, and even gentiles. You’ll notice how it says the land will be soaked with blood and their dust ( the corpses ) will be covered with fat. The. It gets to this wonderful and clarifying passage. It’s land will become burning pitch that won’t be quenched with smoke that goes up forever and ever. It’s talking about Edom. A place on earth. Is Edom still on fire with rising smoke for the last few thousand years? No. We know that for a fact. So we can rightfully, like good bereans, see there the symbolism of eternal fire and smoke does not literally mean forever and ever. It’s war language and it means completely destroyed.

So when we read other verses like these we can automatically see it’s once again symbolic war speech. It’s imagery for destruction.

Revelation 20:10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

  • But in addition to being war speech we can see some other clear cut clues.

Revelation 20:14-15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

*In addition to the devil and false prophet being thrown into hell we also see the wicked and “death and hades”. So how does the grave and death get tormented forever and ever? Is death given a bodily form to be tortured? That’s a ridiculous thought. But what does happen? Death and the grave gets destroyed because the only ones left are those with eternal life.

That is something that needs to be fleshed out too. What’s the first death? It’s when we die. It’s what we all face. But we need to think about this fact also.

Acts 24:15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

*Both the wicked and the righteous will be resurrected after the first death. So why are we all brought back the first time? The Bible tells us. To face judgement at the white throne.

Revelation 20:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judgment at the Throne of God
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

  • it says we are all resurrected and we all face judgment. Now judgement does not always have to be bad. Judgement is the decision that the judge makes. We know what those judgments are.

Matthew 25:46
New American Standard Bible
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

( I’ll talk specifically about this verse in the next post)

Some other verses to consider are.

Revelation 19:20
New American Standard Bible
Doom of the Beast and False Prophet
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

  • in these verses the two beasts are thrown into the lake of fire. The prophet was the second beast. Revelation 13 talks about the beast from the sea which represents Rome and the beast from the earth which was given power from the first beast and performed miracles. So how is rome cast into the lake of fire? The same way Edom was destroyed with eternal fire. It means they are toppled and no longer super powers that persecute the saints.

The same thing happens to the whore of Babylon on the scarlet beast.

So without a doubt, the symbolism of eternal fire and smoke that rises forever and ever simply means destroyed.

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Also just a quick side note concerning the misunderstanding that annihilation means we are all equally destroyed. The Bible says the unrighteous will be judged by their deeds. That lends to the thought that there will be different levels of judgement. So how can all be judged with destruction of body and soul while also being judged differently.

That very humanistic concept is even recognizable for us. Humans have executed each other in many ways. The electric chair is going to be very different than a lethal injection. For a fact, most suicides tend to pick a way to leave this world that is not extremely unpleasant. A bullet through the head will be much faster than hanging and both will or only be less painful than crushed feet first by a tractor and so on. There is no reason to believe that the execution that destroys both body and soul will be handed out in the same way. The punishment just want go on forever and ever as a action. Instead it will be eternal because of its consequence. Death. Destruction.

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When my pastor read a book that said there is no eternal punishment in hell, he said “don’t you hope that’s right?”

There was a pause when he asked his dad that.

What part of us wants people to be tortured forever? And should not we repent of that desire?

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The second part of my response.

Another common verse that at first glance seems to strongly support eternal punishment ends up not being so strong after all.

Matthew 25:46
New American Standard Bible
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

  • It would almost seem pointless to argue this one by simply reading the phrase eternal life vs eternal punishment. But it’s actually not that strong of a argument for either direction, but definitely leans a bit more on the view that we are annihilated in hell which is the lake of fire.

The first thing to consider is that to be executed is a eternal punishment. As shown in the previous post we know the righteous and wicked are both resurrected for the judgement. So the first death is not eternal for anyone. We all arise. Some to eternal life and some to what is called the second death. Now the second death is the same as the first death. It’s destruction. So this second death that kills the wicked is eternal. It’s never reversed. There is no second resurrection followed by a third death.

Furthermore we should see how is eternal used throughout scripture.

Hebrews 6:2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

  • it can easily be argued that there is one judgement with eternal consequences. The judgement is the verdict, not the sentencing.

Mark 3:29
New American Standard Bible
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

  • once you stopped sinning , the action, the sin is over. How can a single action be a sin for all eternity?

Hebrews 9:12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

  • no one here would believe that eternal redemption means to continually keep being redeemed. Why would Christ have to continually redeem up for all eternity. He redeems us and it has eternal consequences.

Hebrews 5:9
New American Standard Bible
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

  • again here we don’t believe that Jesus is continually saving us. He’s already saved is.

So eternal punishment does not have to mean being eternally punished but can mean a punishment with eternal consequences.

So again being annihilated can most definitely mean having a punishment with eternal consequences.

Another often sought after verse is actually the parable of Lazarus and the rich man found in these verses.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblegateway.com/passage/%3Fsearch=Luke%2B16:19-31&version=NASB&interface=amp

The first mistake is confusing this parable for a literal story. Its a parable with parables around it. Yes it names Lazarus but that’s simply a way to amplify his humanity and by leaving the rich man nameless it sort of undermines his humanity. The other things to consider why it’s a parable is becaise it opens with ,” now there was a rich man” which is typical of parables. Jesus also has lots of personal detailed information on the guy including his life in hades. That’s just not realistic. It’s clearly a parable. Does he have a spiritual tongue that wants spiritual water?

But let’s give them the benefit of a doubt and say it’s a legit story that’s very literal. If that’s the case it’s still not a backbone for eternal conscious torment. Here’s why.

We already know that there will be two deaths. At the time of the second death it’s at the white throne judgment. By this time there is no second chances to make different choices. There would be no brothers to be warned. So this would have to be about the grave taking place between the first and second death and not about hell after the second death.

In the next section I’ll try to highlight the more clear, less symbolic passages about eternal destruction. Such as the wages of sin is death. God will destroy both body and soul. I’ll try to tease out how to be eternally consciously punished means you must have eternal life. So that means the wicked would be raised to eternal life to be eternally punished. But clearly only some are raised to eternal life. That means the others have limited life which means death comes for them.

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Yes, Laura, there are degrees - this is Jesus speaking.

There is a clear biblical example of still-conscious beings who have endured a thousand years of hell’s torment. The beast and false prophet “were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur” (Rev. 19:20) before the “thousand years” (20:2). Yet after this time the devil “was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [still] are” (v. 10 NKJV). Not only were they alive when they entered, but they were still alive after a thousand years of conscious torment. This alone is a definitive argument against annihilationism.

Punishment Can Only Be Experienced by Those Who Are Conscious

That the wicked receive “everlasting punishment” shows that they must be conscious. One cannot suffer punishment unless he consciously exists to be punished (cf. 2 Thess. 1:9). Further, again, God’s justice cannot be upheld if those who have chosen evil and refused Him are unconscious (annihilated).

Jesus called hell a place of unquenchable flames (Mark 9:43–48), where the bodies of the wicked will never die (Luke 12:4–5). It is nonsensical to posit everlasting flames and bodies without souls to experience torment.

Annihilation would be demeaning both to the love of God and to the nature of human beings as free moral creatures. It would be as if God said, “I will allow you to live only if you do what I say. If you don’t, I will snuff out your very existence!” Eternal existence is an eternal testimony to the freedom and dignity with which God created humans; eternal bliss is the destiny of the redeemed, and eternal suffering is the destiny of the unrepentant.

To equally punish a “white lie” and genocide would be unjust; murder should receive greater punishment than petty theft.

However, there is no evidence that judgment proportionate to the sin is always meted out in this life; the wisest man who ever lived complained of this life’s inequities (Eccl. 3:16–22). Not all sin is equal, though, and all will not receive the same eternal result. Annihilationism is contrary to moral justice, which demands that the punishment fit the crime.

Again, the Bible reveals degrees of eternal punishment in hell (Matt. 5:22; Rev. 20:12–14). Because “degrees of annihilation” is implausible—nonexistence would be the same for everyone—annihilationism is irrational.

Anything based on wish-fulfilment is an illusion.At the base of annihilationism is the desperate wish to avoid suffering—no one wants to suffer, let alone to suffer forever. This becomes a problem when it is someone we love. No?

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You forget the option punishment in the LOF according to deeds and thereafter annihilation.

BTW, I am undecided on the issue.

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The stuff we project on Love eh?

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I put my hope on the story of Jonah, one of the seldom moments in Scripture God relents from a former decree after the collective repentence of the people of Nineveh. When a sinner standing before Him on judgement day, overwhelmed and truly repents, is that not what God wants? A bit of the great divorce in a nutshell. You like God, or you don’t.

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I actually counter argued most of what you said in my last three previous posts using scripture. You’re greatly misunderstanding the passages. If they are just isolated passages it would be fine. But they fit with a greater narrative and are explained already in scripture.

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Scripture doesn’t explain reality.

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I’m not sure how eternal torture is somehow less demeaning to the love of God. God is under no obligation to make humans “eternal.” Eternal life is a gift, not an entitlement.

When it comes to “the beast,” I would have a hard time seeing that as some kind of blueprint for how humans should expect to be treated. I’ve always seen it as more of a demonic presence.

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Plus it depends which beast. Additionally I hyperlinked eternal fire and endless smoke to their actual meanings. It’s much more clear than what ECT try to make it out to be.

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If eternal, conscious torment is true, then why would any Christian want to have children? Isn’t it a risk that you are bringing a sentient being into existence who’s eternity will be suffering?

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Is having children all about what makes you happy? If so then you should really rethink the whole idea. The risk of misery in having children is enormous. Not only can they make terrible choices making life for themselves and others quite miserable, but they can hate you simply for trying to help them. Having children is about giving life and offering your love. But life and love is all about choice – THEIR choice. And that choice includes an option to reject life and love themselves. It includes the choice of making themselves miserable, and some of the time there is nothing you can do about it. So if you don’t want to give them that choice, then you should probably skip on the whole parenting idea altogether.

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Doesn’t address Robert’s point.

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And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. [Gen 9:1]

Well, God knows, and still wants it.

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Doesn’t address my post, which answers his questions rather than some point you imagine he is making.

Doesn’t address Robert’s questions.

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In fairness, the question is also irrelevant. I support the obviously fact that the body and soul is destroyed in hell and not eternally consciously tormented. But I believe that scriptural debate on this issue is far better than philosophical ones.

Even if CI ( Conditional Immortality ) was fake, and ECT ( Eternal Conscious Torment ) was real I would still want to have kids because I believe this world needs more decent people who are educated and want to improve it and believe that I can raise up my kids as such.

Philosophical questions can accent the scriptural truth but it usually does not work as arguments for those who rejected it.

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Just an aside … I hang around on this site … a lot (obviously). And yet I still find myself struggling as I read along to remember what all the multiplying acronymns mean (I swear … these things must be multiplying to fill and subdue the entire earth!) Since I’ve read most of the books and hung out here enough, I can usually come up with it (ECT … oh yeah … ‘Eternal Conscious Torment’) But right now ‘CI’ is giving me fits (I know I’ll kick myself of course) … ‘Conscious … something?’

In any case and memory challenged as I may be, if I’m struggling with this as a regular here, imagine the frustrations of readers dropping in! (Or of ourselves revisiting such threads years later when we may not have discussed this stuff for a while). I think it would really add to the long term value of what everybody writes if they would cut back on the acronyms and force themselves to type stuff out just a bit more. Or at the very least, type it out for your first usage in that post (followed by the set-apart acronym that you could use for the rest of that post). Even just doing that would make your discussion so much more valuable to much wider audiences! TFYAITM Thanks for your attention in this matter.

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CI is conditional immortality. Meaning the soul is not naturally immortal and only has eternal life through Christ. Without Christ, a soul can and will be destroyed.

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