Eternal suffering in hell isn't in the Bible

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

Ahhh good ol Jw Witnesses. (Only a joke)

[SkovandOfMitaze (Mi)]

Here are some verses concerning how Edom will be burning forever and forever. Smoke rising forever.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblegateway.com/passage/%3Fsearch=Isaiah%2B34:5-15&version=NASB&interface=amp

Yet we know Edom is not still on fire to this day.

So even here, a eternal fire does not literally mean eternal fire. It’s war talk , it’s justice talk, and it has a pattern in scripture.

[LM77 (Liam Maguire)]

Thanks for your thorough reply, @mitchellmckain.

@mitchellmckain

I am one of these people who believe Jesus actually existed and that He really said those things quoted in the gospels.

So am I.

@mitchellmckain

I don’t find Jesus’ words to be all that ambiguous. But that does not mean they are not metaphorical or that they should be taken strictly literal. He portrays the negative consequences which we refer to as hell quite clearly as eternal conscious torment not annihilation, and the closest we can get to annihilation is diminishing awareness.

Fair enough. Others do, or interpret them other ways and make well reasoned and researched arguments for alternative readings. Even though I ultimately find these arguments unconvincing, I recognise the fact that they are they find enough ambiguity for them to press a case for annihilation. I always recognise that plenty of the descriptors that Jesus uses are metaphorical and abstract (worm, fire, outer darkness, gnashing teeth) and so could be understood as hyperbole or otherwise. Again, that is ambiguity, IMO.

John Stott (in)famously said that annihilation can’t be ruled out as a genuine option. And, I think I’m inclined to agree with him. It can’t be categorically ruled out as an option, even if, as I said, I personally reject that option in the final analysis.

@mitchellmckain

But the biggest problem I have with annihilationism is that this is a completely empty threat to me. I do not believe in all this religious stuff because I am afraid of nonexistence. That accusation by atheists is total baloney in my case! Quite the contrary, oblivion sound WONDERFUL! For me, being able to simply escape in this way just sounds too good to be true.

On this, we are on the same page. If I am honest, I find annihilation morally and philosophically lacking for the same reasons why I would frantically oppose the death penalty if I were an atheist. If the deceased has no recollection of the justice they have been served, whilst the wronged must bear their entire life the implications of a crime committed against them, is that justice? Others may and have disagreed. Personally, I can’t square that circle.

Yet again, I recognise that others cannot square the circle of ETC either and find it equally morally and philosophically lacking. As a result, I, myself, advocate for a live and let live approach on secondary issues like this one. The ETC-er and the Annhilationist both agree that the fate of the lost is grim, tragic, and something you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy. It is the nature of that fate on which they disagree.

At the end of the day, we can both heartily affirm the line of the Nicene Creed that states that Christ “will return to judge the living and the dead” and that’s good enough for me. And more than can be said for the universalist, IMHO.

A pleasure as always. Blessings, L

[Randy]

@LM77

At the end of the day, we can both heartily affirm the line of the Nicene Creed that states that Christ “will return to judge the living and the dead” and that’s good enough for me. And more than can be said for the universalist, IMHO.

I appreciate your discussion. However, if we have Christians judged by Christ at the “bema seat” to get reward according to their actions, as Paul seems to say, then I imagine that those who are not saved in the universalist position (such as with George Macdonald’s ultimate reconciliation) are judged the same. In the case of those who have not repented, they’re sent to punishment until they repent.

Thanks.

George MacDonald: Justice, Hell and Atonement

[ManiacalVesalius]

Good point.

[LM77 (Liam Maguire)]

Hi Randy, thanks for coming back to me. Yes, that does seem fair. If a person holds to the ‘hell with an exit’ position, then they could affirm the line of the creed too. Although I think it is fair to say that it probably stretches what the authors of the creed had in mind for that line more so than annihilationism. Is that fair?

If it doe, the question then becomes, does ‘Hell with an exit’ universalism stretch it too far?

EDIT: Thanks for the article @Randy, I’ll take a look.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@ManiacalVesalius

Genesis is not a metaphorical text. See InspiringPhilosophy’s ongoing series on Genesis to understand them. The young earth reading is clearly, definitely wrong, and you should look at the way Hebrew scholars understand Genesis before dismissing it as a metaphor.

There are obvious allegories in the Bible - that doesn’t mean anything you want to be an allegory becomes an allegory. And in terms of the teaching of annihilation, this is clearly literal, and is expressed in other Jewish texts from the same time period (e.g. Psalms of Solomon, 4 Ezra, 2 Maccabees, etc).

Please tell me on what grounds you think Christianity teaches that sinners will just feel guilty forever.

Genesis is allegorical from… the beginning. Lazarus and Dives is an allegory using afterlife motifs whilst having nothing whatsoever to do with the afterlife. Again, how would anybody, from Jesus on down, know?

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@Laura

The most famous verse of the New Testament is John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” There it is. The wicked will not be tormented eternally but simply … “perish”. End. Go away. Be annihilated. In fact, the Gospels regularly contrast the fate of the wicked with “eternal life”. Well, what’s the opposite of life? Death.

Exactly. In the church I grew up in, I actually had a leader say to me after reading that verse, “Well, we’ll all have eternal life – we just have to decide where we want to spend it.” And as I’ve said before, if you have to edit Jesus’s own words to fit your theology, that might be a good time to consider whether your theology is wrong.

So you agree with that ‘leader’?

And as none of us were present hearing Jesus’ Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek, seeing His facial expression and have a full understanding of His epistemology or our own, His words come to us edited multiple times.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@ManiacalVesalius

That doesn’t show it’s all figurative at all. There’s a difference between trying to forcibly read eternal torment into Jesus’s words and Jesus actually teaching eternal torment. In fact, none of it is figurative, and Jesus simply teaches the eventual destruction and annihilation of all the wicked in the Final Judgement.

Nor does it make any sense at all in the light of eternity.

I’m not sure why it doesn’t.

Are Satan and his demons demiurges? From eternity? For infinity? Or just Terran?

[LM77 (Liam Maguire)]

@ManiacalVesalius

And in terms of the teaching of annihilation, this is clearly literal, and is expressed in other Jewish texts from the same time period (e.g. Psalms of Solomon, 4 Ezra, 2 Maccabees, etc).

Interesting @ManiacalVesalius, could I have some precise references, please?

[Laura]

No, my point is that I disagree now. But at the time I was a kid and believed it because that’s what I was taught.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

@Laura

No, my point is that I disagree now. But at the time I was a kid and believed it because that’s what I was taught.

I hoped so!

[ManiacalVesalius]

Psalm of Solomon 13:11; 2 Maccabees 7:14; 4 Ezra 7:61.

But keep in mind that there were also plenty of texts in Second Temple Judaism that spoke of eternal fire and torment. E.g. 1 Enoch 22, Judith 16:17.

[ManiacalVesalius]

Genesis is definitely not a mere allegory, please refer to the series I linked to. Certainly, Eridu Genesis and the Epic of Gilgamesh among other ancient near eastern creation stories weren’t pure allegories. As for how Jesus would know, this is how Jesus knew anything about the afterlife - divine knowledge.

[Klax (The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)]

I didnee say it was. And what divine knowledge did Jesus have?

[LM77 (Liam Maguire)]

Thanks. I’ll check these out.

I own a collection of Pseudepigraphic texts and I also have a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls so feel free to send me any and all references you have.

Also be interested in any references to church fathers on the subject too.

Whenever someone says something has been has been misunderstood by X group and was a commonly held belief by Y group I always have the same response: “Show me the primary sources!”

@ManiacalVesalius

But keep in mind that there were also plenty of texts in Second Temple Judaism that spoke of eternal fire and torment.

Sure, a good reminder. STJ was not theologically monolithic.

[fmiddel]

Actually, “hell” is not in the Bible. Gehenna is. Sheol is. Hades is. Tartarus is. The lake of fire is. So…any attempts to equate “hell” with any of these is a matter of guessing or clarification of definition.

[SkovandOfMitaze (Mi)]

Hell is simple the English translation for Gehenna based on Anglo Saxon references. When scholars, or almost anyone in general use the word Hell they are using it for Gehenna, as the place of torment and not not simply the grave.

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

Okay, @mitchellmckain and @Klax … I think we can safely leave behind the topic of what anybody thinks anybody else (including Jesus) could know. Too much vitriol - that starts to make this thread look like the OP topic itself. I deleted all the snark above.

[Chrisloewen]

My own take on the topic, which I’ve published over at Rethinking Hell. My author page:

Author: Chris Loewen | Rethinking Hell

Chrisloewen