There’s no such a thing as an Eternal hell. How do you ever get Eternal hell? There always was a hell, then. The Bible said, “It was created for the devil and his angels.” There always would be a hell; if there always will be one, there’ll had to be one at the beginning. And what…Who used it back there when—when He was El, Elah, Elohim, “the Self-existing One,” when there’s nothing else? Then hell had to be right there with Him. See? “Hell was created for the devil and his angels. And all the wicked will be cast into it.” That’s exactly right. They’ll be punished for maybe a hundred million years for what they’ve done. But there’ll come a time that they’ll have the second death. There’ll be nothing left of them. Everything that had a beginning has an end. So when we receive Eternal Life, we’re receiving part of that cosmic light that was back yonder before there was ever was a molecule. Uh-huh. That Light of God comes into our heart that lightens us that we see Jesus. The Bible said, “We don’t see all things, but we see Jesus.”
There’s no such a thing, as an Eternal hell. How do you ever get Eternal hell? There always was a hell, then. The Bible said, “It was created for the devil and his angels.” There always would be a hell; if there always will be one, there’ll had to be one at the beginning. And what…Who used it back there when—when He was El, Elah, Elohim, “the Self-existing One,” when there’s nothing else? Then hell had to be right there with Him. See? “Hell was created for the devil and his angels. And all the wicked will be cast into it.” That’s exactly right. They’ll be punished for maybe a hundred million years for what they’ve done. But there’ll come a time that they’ll have the second death. There’ll be nothing left of them. Everything that had a beginning has an end. So when we receive Eternal Life, we’re receiving part of that cosmic light that was back yonder before there was ever was a molecule. Uh-huh. That Light of God comes into our heart that lightens us that we see Jesus. The Bible said, “We don’t see all things, but we see Jesus.”
there never was an Eternal hell ’cause in the beginning God said that hell was created for the devil and his angels, for their future punishment. Then if hell is Eternal, how could it be created?The word Eternal, “never did begin and never can end.” Then there always was a hell if it’s an Eternal hell, “there was a hell all the same time, the same time there was a God there was a hell, before there was any sin there was still a hell.” Huh! Oh, my! See, you can’t make it.
“Eternal” is a poor translation for αἰώνιον (eye-OWE-nee-own) despite how many lexicons stick to that. It indicates “age-wise”, i.e. pertaining to an age, and an age is not a specific period of time; an age lasts as long as necessary for something to be complete(d).
So let’s read it this way:
“And they will go away into age-wise punishment, but the righteous into age-wise life.”
Now ask how to determine those periods: God is just, and there is no conceivable way in which torture by fire for an unlimited amount of time is just, even for Stalin or Muslim terrorists – the Old Testament is clear that the punishment must fit the crime, so we must expect this torment to last just long enough to fit people’s worst sins.
As for the righteous, God has said He wants to live with His people. God being infinite, we can expect that His desire for this is infinite, so for the righteous we should expect that there will be no end to their age (unless God surprises us with something better).
Actually the plain reading of the words would be that it’s destruction there’s no return from.
Besides which we’re back to the Greek αἰώνιον, “age-wise”, which means it lasts until it’s completed, which in this case would be suitable to the sins involved.
= - = + = - = † = - = + = - =
No, it’s a number of different forms of ancient literature. On the other hand, if you want to default to some modern view of literature, allegory isn’t a bad choice.
Nope; at most three times: Aramaic => Greek => variant reading => English.
Good point: “annihilation” doesn’t necessarily mean “turned off” like someone flips a switch, it may mean immense suffering that eventually leaves no trace.
I kinda agree with ST Roymond on this. I have little caveat (which may be a chasm)…
Eternal life as described in the bible is timeless!
Death is a bit more complicated…we have mortal death and i suppose one might say (as Mitchel McMillan has stated) eternal death.
My belief is that in the bible, eternal death is a statement of finality…its kaput! It does not mean that there is some kind of consciousness that recognises that one is in eternal death!
Jesus tells us quite plainly, “death is a sleep”.
However, we know that the bible also says
“the dead no nothing and no memory of them is found”.
This means that biblically there is no consciousness in death. So i read it as just meaning…it final…its kaput.
However because this death relates to human mortality, it is different to the timelessness of eternal life.
Perhaps im just illustrating how opposite the two really are in that one is finite because its bound by the notion of mortal consciousness and the other is infinite!
(EDIT) oh i forgot…my belief is that Christ will cleanse sin from the universe…I do not think the memory of it shall be removed because i also believe that the scars in Christs hands and side might be eternal…so these would be a reminder of what He has done for us having made atonement for the wages of sin.
Derived I presume from the meaning “to trim”. I don’t have access to my TDNT at the moment so I can’t delve further.
But then what would “eternal correction” be – instruction or training that never ends? As much as I love learning new things that would be a daunting prospect even for me!
Though this does play into a theme in some of the church Fathers that God will eventually persuade everyone; replace the misleading term “eternal” with the more accurate “agewise” and we get “agewise correction” which would mean correction that lasts however long it takes.
Inheritance and punishment are two very different things.
It is written that Adam and Eve would die. Presumably that means that their descendants are in the same boat. And since that death was spiritual, then all descendants are born spiritually dead as something we inherit from them.
So we do not have the same chance as they did.
= - = + = - = † = - = + = - =
I would say that those are the same thing, according to the Gospels.
= - = + = - = † = - = + = - =
No, He has those wounds because they are the emblems of Victory.
= - = + = - = † = - = + = - =
That’s just bad math. Infinities can have a starting point but no ending, or they can have neither.
prove that please as I can and have numerous times on these forums proved such a claim is not only baseless, its just plain wrong!
For example,
- Adam and Eve taught their children to offer sacrifices…these were all physical.
- The Old Testament Sanctuary Service…physical offerings of sheep and goats
- Christs:
- physical incarnation,
- physical death on the cross
- physical resurrection (note doubting Thomas in upper room )
- physical ascension
- physical second coming
The above all disagree with your claim.
If the wages of sin is death was spiritual, then prayer was all that is needed (and that clearly isnt the case).
The only reason why we do not need to offer physical sacrifices now (just in case you attempt to throw this in the mix) is because atonement has been made by Christ.
EDIT
oh and i will add another important biblical doctrine that is relevant…James tells us “faith without works is dead”
1. 14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action,f is dead.
James 2:2. 18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that God is one.g Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
3. 20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?h 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”i and he was called a friend of God.j 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.
So contrary to your claim…spiritual only salvation is a biblical myth! What Paul talks about in his writings is the we cannot save ourselves with our works. However, as James correctly points out, it is the fruits of our faith that others observe in us …these are a demonstration of the qualities of a saved person.
i have to work…gotta go
Really? You think humans are born spiritually alive?
How does that fit with us being by nature children of wrath? and with “in Adam all die”? or that none is righteous?
Or are you claiming that Adam and Eve remained spiritually alive after sinning? Wouldn’t that mean that we can be spiritually alive and just sin all we want?
Your list of things that are physical isn’t even relevant. It’s very bad Christology and soteriology, though this is a real bizarre one:
That’s sheer nonsense and is bad biblical anthropology besides bad Christology.
I don’t ascribe to this meaning of the word eternal. It certainly doesn’t apply when the Bible speaks of eternal life either. The word in greek is αἰώνιον and it means everlasting, so having no beginning has nothing to do with it. And anyway, I don’t believe hell is a creation of God and I certainly don’t believe in a hell which always existed. The hell I believe in is something people create – like we see it in the world.
The plain fact is that at the end of Matthew 25, Jesus says…
"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
And I don’t see how babbling about there being no hell which “never did begin and never can end” changes that in the slightest. You might as well argue that there is no eternal life because our life had a beginning.