And finally…
HELL AND PUNISHMENT
mitchellmckain:
"If we do not let go of our self-destructive habits and let God remove them, then they will devour us, destroying everything of value within us – a descent into greater depravity and darkness.”
“Physical death is not a punishment but a natural inevitable transition in life, like when the new born infant leaves the womb to experience a much greater world.”
"You can see the creation of hell by human beings in many places and times on the earth. It is not about the scenery which is incredibly superficial but about the relationships between people. This is why many unbelievers say that they would prefer the company in hell rather than be stuck with the self-righteous intolerant prigs who will apparently populate heaven. ”
Kguess:
Definitely you can see human beings creating their own torment, and definitely the fundamental issue is relationships. The two greatest commandments are entirely about the two relationships we each have, with God and with each other.
But death is the most significant part of the punishment God meted out to Adam in Genesis 3, and the entire point of Jesus being resurrected is overcoming death. In 1 Corinthians 15:24-26, Paul speaks of God destroying his enemies, and the “last enemy to be destroyed is death.”
So how can it be that “physical death is not a punishment but a natural inevitable transition in life?” It is natural that it seems that way to us, because we see death all the time, and we know that the bodies of those who die are absorbed back into the biological system and become nourishment for new life. Yet, doesn’t Genesis 2-3 make it clear that this is only “natural” in the Fallen World, where things die and we have no access to the Tree of Life?
You said, “There are those who create heaven around them with the love they give to others and there are those who create hell around them with the nastiness they are always showing to others around them. This follows them wherever they go and cannot be escaped…”
You may not realize it, but you are describing the Buddhist view of “Heaven” and “Hell.” Death as birth from the “womb” of material life to “experience a much greater world" is very much in line with the concept of reincarnation. And saying that this “much greater world” is Hellish or Heavenish due to how we lived in the womb is exactly the concept of Karma. The only difference between reincarnation/karma and your conception is that you believe this only happens once. Yet, you seem to believe that after death, those who are in Hell continue to create it. Is that correct?
Now, reincarnation/karma makes a lot of sense IF there is no God-identity who created it all for the ultimate purpose of creating Heaven. For then there is no moral issue. Buddhism does not posit a creator. I’m not sure I understand fully how Buddhists think of it, but it seems to be that they regard the idea of beginnings and endings as more illusions the mind creates, and thus the question of how it all begin is just a trap laid by the ego.
But if there is a God-identity who created it all for the ultimate purpose of creating Heaven, a place where we all live in his Love, Joy and Peace, and in which we all know him, then how can he avoid responsibility for the consequences to his creations? How can he be relieved of responsibility for eternal suffering if he created it all? Was it an oversight? God had an “oops” moment, and many of his creations will suffer eternally because of it?
Or did he do it on purpose, intending for some of his creations to live in Heaven forever in Love, Peace and Joy, and some to live in Hell forever in suffering and torment?
If God does have a grand plan for his creation, then how do you get around this question? How can God both love us so much that he would sacrifice his Son that we might be forgiven—that he would declare he takes no pleasure in anyone’s death, that he would spare all of Sodom and allow its corruption to continue if only a few of its inhabitants were found to be innocent—and choose to allow us to get trapped in eternal suffering and torment?
How is that possible?