Elohim's identity

If you read what I said, I didn’t say it was “wrong” or that it was “primitive science” but that, if anything, it was protoscience. The problem is that various religious groups tend towards pseudo-science and ignore the profound message of the poetic and symbolic content.

I am afraid that your understanding of tribal storytelling is flawed, but that is normal because we have all fallen into the habit of overstating the narrow focus that we can gather in words rather than pictures. Storytelling is the pictorial portrayal of events, with vivid narratives of emotion and consequences, and not the sober recording of facts or evidence. The specialized activities you list are not extracted out of storytelling, but in fact step back from any emotional participation, and I have no idea where “revolution” comes into the discussion.

But that is exactly what I am saying, subjective experience is what is described in the bible, not objective observation. I find great satisfaction in the Lord of the Rings but see how it is problematic to make it any more than a fictive narrative, projecting a mythological perspective. All the same, the world Tolkien created has a Catholic basis, with God, Angels, Heroes, and anti-heroes, all struggling against a manifestation of evil. But, as Tolkien says, it is absolutely not suitable as an allegory of modern events, but tells the gritty story of conflict.

I’m afraid that, once again, you confuse the issue. Yes, Schrödinger mentioned in the preface that he was entering a sphere with that book, which was not his own, but I didn’t read it as a scientist. I read it as an attempt of a human being who has a scientific background, to come to terms with foundational questions. In particular the religious side, which in his case he took from Vedanta rather than Christianity, speaks through his quasi-scientific vocabulary. From a scientific perspective it is also dated, admittedly, but the struggle of one seeing the eternal looking back at him as he observes the universe is present.

… and which Schrödinger confirms in My View of the World, but it is more the rejection of a philosophical view, which ironically in itself is philosophical, that he is describing.

I nearly added an expletive here. The words, “I need the vocabulary of poets to describe the universe,” is attributed to Carl Sagan, who was known for his ability to blend scientific understanding with a poetic and philosophical approach when describing the cosmos. Gazing at the stars was probably the begin of science, which explains why astronomy was prominent for so long but also how astrology landed in religious scriptures.

Arthur Eddington also famously said, "Science is the poetry of reality,” which reflects his appreciation for the beauty and complexity of the universe, which transcends the purely technical or scientific descriptions. Just as poetry ignites emotions, imagination, and contemplation, science unveils the wonders of the universe, uncovering the intricate truths and patterns that dictate our reality. By comparing science to poetry, Eddington emphasizes the enchantment and artistry inherent within both disciplines, inviting us to appreciate the captivating melody that harmony between facts and wonder can create.

Of course it is wrong to bring experience in line with scripture, but your words about “replacing” are lost on me. I have a high reverence for scripture in its context, and that is what it has been about for some time. It was correct for science to point out that religion and science were not the same, but it was wrong not to see them as two sides of a coin. It was wrong for religion to fail to accept its role in the humanities, but to try and gain acceptance as some kind of science. It is a little bit like the joke that Alan Watts told, about a psychologist who continually wore a white coat to see if he could get away with it.

I agree with you in how the word is used, mainly taking from 1 Samuel 28:13, the story of Saul and the Medium at Endor. The meeting with the witch of Endor was absolutely forbidden because it involved necromancy. It states:

“And HaMelech said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the isha said unto Sha’ul, I see elohim olim from HaAretz” translated as she saw a ghostly figure, spirits, or gods coming up out of the earth. (Curiously, the term “olim” in the context of Haaretz or Israeli society today generally refers to immigrants who have moved to Israel.)

But at the centre of the story is a medium, the “Witch” of Endor, who is consulted by Saul, the first king of Israel. Although Saul had forbidden spirit conjuring and communication with the dead, he asked her to conjure the spirit of the prophet Samuel with a talisman. It is interesting to see how this story has developed over the centuries. Originally the woman was referred to as either a necromancer, sorceress, pythonissa, fortune teller or medium. The idea of the woman as a “witch” may have emerged in later periods, such as the 16th century, during the witch hunts and trials in Europe.

The story illustrates though, in that Saul wanted to know how an upcoming battle against the Philistines would turn out, and it was not good news for Saul, that there was a belief that this was possible. The spirit told him that he and his sons would all die in battle and Israel would fall, and according to the biblical account in 1 Samuel 31, King Saul and his sons did die as the medium’s vision or prophecy suggested. So, where do we go with this story? Necromancy, as traditionally defined is not considered a valid or scientifically recognized phenomenon. In the realm of scientific inquiry, the study of necromancy would fall under the category of pseudoscience or the paranormal, and it is not subjected to empirical investigation.

The question here for me, is whether this belief in the spiritual realm as portrayed, does not belong under the category of pseudoscience or the paranormal, just like necromancy?

I will simply ignore your more combative comments as a waste of my time. I don’t see them serving any meaningful purpose. And if there is something I say which you can only understand in a combative manner then I suggest you ignore those also. Otherwise I could also go on and on about how “flawed” your thinking is… but it really only amounts to the fact that your way of thinking and mine are different. I see that as a good thing whatever you may think.

Well good. You should count that as successful communication then, and acknowledge that we are not going to say the same things in the same way.

I read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings yearly most of my life. I would not put it on the same shelf of the library as the Bible, but only if the Bible is not read in a way that divorces it from reality as we experience it. This is one of my frequent objections… for example to cessationism.

It was something else which Eddington said which I liked a great deal. He said (paraphrase) to think the mathematical descriptions of science were the sum of reality is absurd. I quite agree.

But this talk of science being poetry is itself poetry. In reality, science is nothing like poetry. Indeed that is kind of the whole point of what Eddington said which I liked. There is more to life and reality than what science describes and ok perhaps some people can find some of that “more” in poetry. Others find it in quite different things.

I looked it up because I found your use of this for psychologists to be very confusing. I only found him talking about academic philosophers, criticizing the way they treated philosophy as a 9-5 job. Perhaps more to the point was his talk of scientists as the new priest wearing lab coats as their vestments of authority.

That seems to be a good strategy to avoid the point I was making about Storytelling being a pictorial portrayal of events, with vivid narratives of emotion and consequences, and not the sober recording of facts or evidence. The specialized activities you list are not extracted out of storytelling, but in fact step back from any emotional participation, and I have no idea where “revolution” comes into the discussion.

You miss my point …

Niels Bohr said: ‘We must be clear that, when it comes to atoms, language can be used only as in poetry. The poet, too, is not nearly so concerned with describing facts as with creating images and establishing mental connections.’ (Conversation recorded in Heisenberg 1971, ‘“Understanding” in modern physics’: 27–42).

You are right, I misquoted. However, psychologists typically do not wear white coats like those worn by medical professionals in clinical or laboratory settings, as psychology is a distinct field from medicine.

So your strategy is to avoid the point I was making.

You miss my point.

That’s ok. Perhaps you are no more interested in the points I was making than I was interested in the points you were making. If your “point” simply has no meaning for me then I make what connections I can for sake of discussion. It is the best I can do, if I am going to respond at all.

But then there are other readers who may find what we say interesting in spite of our mutual lack of interest.

Meaning that the proper means of describing things (like atoms) in the physical sciences is mathematics not language. To use language is to be as vague and imprecise as poetry.

Yeah sure, mathematics really describes things, but poetry is vague and imprecise. What a statement!

How detached must one be to make it?

Detached enough for science is too detached for life.

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Using the Bible as an operating manual for life is like using a large volume on the history and philosophy of auto design as a source for fixing your car.

Interesting that you choose to agree with Mitchell on this point, but ignore the discussion as a whole. It is almost as though you think that he was making a point in opposition to what I said, which is not the case.

Again I am reminded of that scene in “Arrival” where the main character and linguist figures out that the Chinese are using mahjong to communicate with the aliens. The problem being that it limits communication to a conflict oriented activity. Likewise our exchanges don’t have to be forced into the forms and mentality of a debate. Responses can be for a great variety of things like what this reminds a person of… or here are the loosely related things I have been thinking of recently. They can be exchanges for no other reason than keeping the thread going just a little bit longer. LOL

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The Hebrew Bible is a collection of texts that were compiled based on oral traditions and then edited, redacted, and reworked over time. They represent a merging of cultures and languages and conceptualizations of reality from different eras. It’s not surprising that you can find influences in different texts from different surrounding cultures and their religions (Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian) and that those influences affect the language used. There is lots of research on the various names used for God and what motiviated uses of one not another in specific texts and what different uses reveal about the text and its sources. This guy you are citing sounds really fringe to me.

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Well, I did mention this:

“The thing that interested me was why did someone who had supervised the translation and publication of 17 books of the Old Testament for Edizioni San Paolo, Italy’s foremost Catholic publisher, turned to an “ancient aliens” conspiracy. The answer he gives the journalist asking him, was that the tendentious translation that he found was going on, was masking behaviours that are attributed to the Elohim, and strangely similar to the behaviour of those the Sumerians called “Anunnaki,” the Egyptians called “Neteru,” and the Babylonians called “Ilanu,” that were for the concept of a God with attributes of eternality, goodness, grace, holiness, immanence, immutability, justice, love, mercy, omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, inappropriate.”

The point is that there are others, former Theologians that have done the same, but don’t bear naming here, because they have equally fallen into the “ancient aliens” trap. There are numerous videos in YouTube that talk about the specific difficulties with aligning the concept of God that many evangelical Christians have with the historical-critical studies that show how the pantheon of gods are portrayed even in the Bible, the Elohim, out of which finally the One God Yahweh emerges.

It is also widely discussed that, despite protestation from many Christians, the “Father God” of Jesus represents a paradigm change with regard to the divine. So much so, that it is discussed whether the fatherly monotheism of Christ is not an offshoot from the Brahman/Atman concept, which are one substance, with the Atman a localised representation of the cosmic Consciousness that is the ground of being. This became especially topical when physicists began comparing the Universe with a mind, and idealism was revived with affinity to Advaida Vedanta.

For me, this is a speculation that is wholesome, showing God to be the wholly other, and far greater than we could imagine, especially than the ancients had imagined, and yet so close that the mystics of numerous traditions envisaged a loving relationship, and employed erotic language as metaphorical for the relationship, like in the Song of Songs it had already been employed. I think that resistance to this development tends to make us stuck in a materialist quagmire, and the strangest ideas arise - even “ancient aliens”!

I’m skeptical. For example the idea of a convenantal son relationship was fully developed in David’s Psalms, and Jesus draws heavily on Davidic allusions and typology.

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That’s more than understatement for me. I have and know of others’ plentiful life experiences with the reality the fatherhood of God and his very cool providences, though not all of them easy – the patriarch Joseph comes to mind (rather early in the Bible and hardly “a paradigm change with regard to the divine”!)…

“You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.”
Genesis 50:20

The whole story, very cool (but not always easy for Joseph!): Genesis 37-50

Absolutely.

No one can have actually ever read the OT and even remotely imagine “a paradigm change” regarding the fatherhood of God, let alone the Psalms.

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The distinctive use of “Abba Father” to address God, as seen in the New Testament, represents a unique aspect of Jesus’ teaching and the Christian understanding of God as a loving and personal Father. It wasn’t a term that was commonly used in the same way prior to the advent of Christianity.

In the Old Testament, God is often referred to using titles such as "Elohim,” "YHWH,” “Adonai” and other more formal names and titles. While the Old Testament does contain passages that emphasize God’s fatherly care and love for His people, the use of “Abba” as a direct address for God is not a common or established term in pre-Christian Jewish literature.

So, the “Abba” call of Christ, may not necessarily be described as a “new paradigm” in the sense of introducing a completely novel concept, but using a term of endearment does reflect a substantial change of understanding and relationship between Jesus and God that has theological implications. In Acts 17:27.28, Paul quotes Greek sources when he says, “God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’”

I don’t get what the dispute here is about. The Bible tells the story of a paradigm shift from polytheism (and idols) to the monotheism of a creator. And according to that story, this shift was a considerable struggle over the whole history of the Jewish people.

Surely Christy and Dale do not dispute this story. So is Rob trying to change the story in some way that we would find unacceptable?

Or is the dispute over this idea of Rob that Christianity is borrowing ideas from Hinduism. In that case I share the skepticism.

The other day I was talking to some American Indians and it turns out they have the concept of the nose just as we do. Do you think they borrowed the concept from us, or did we borrow the concept from them?

Some ideas are just too basic and obvious (as plain as the nose on our face) to think one culture or religion had to borrow them from another. Besides Christianity uses none of the terminology of Hinduism and doesn’t share most of its other ideas. So this idea of borrowing from Hinduism sounds like pure Hindu conceit.

Nevertheless, the Israelites are referred to as the children of God (Deut 14:1) or like the children of God (Jeremiah 3:19). So no this is not such a unique aspect of Jesus teaching, UNLESS you think (as Christians do) Jesus was claiming a more unusual relationship as Son of God, such as when He says “He who has seen me has seen the Father” and “I and the Father are one.”

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It doesn’t help to oversimplify the issue, as you have done here. It is obvious that since the begin of civilisation, humankind has circled the question of what reality is with their concepts. In that process, there have been concepts about which we no longer speak, because with the increase in understanding nature, they became too basic and obvious. However, one question in particular, about how, on a planet that has increasingly been perceived as being on the rim of the vastness of the universe, and at least over vast distances is a unique fountain of life, sentient beings came to be. This question is particularly volatile, because the suffering of these sentient beings over millennia, whether by natural disaster, wild animals, or by their own hand, presents a paradox.

Therefore, we have the experience of reality on the one hand, and the concepts on the other, and if we are to accept the teaching of the Bible, which on the face of it, historically presents a relatively new concept among many other traditions, which are in some cases older, it has to prove that it explains the reality we experience. This discussion isn’t over, and the fact that it is clear that the Bible itself is a source that shows us the struggle to find a solution, also makes it clear that it wasn’t simply a paradigm shift from polytheism to the monotheism of a creator. Numerous informed personalities have said virtually the same about how the Jewish Canon developed, and how YHVH emerged out of a whole pantheon of divine entities, to become the single God of monotheism, one example:

Alone the quotes from John’s Gospel illustrate that, if they constitute the private teaching to his followers, there is reason to believe that he was saying that he was intimate and one with God, which was a “stumbling block” to Jews and foolishness to many Gentiles, but not for eastern traditions. Western mysticism and Eastern mysticism share certain common themes and experiences, despite their distinct cultural backgrounds, and involve the pursuit of direct, personal, and unitive experiences of the divine or ultimate reality. Mystics in both west and east describe experiences of union or oneness with the divine, and both express non-dualistic or monistic philosophies, where the distinction between the self and the divine or ultimate reality dissolves.

Terms like “Beloved” or “Friend” to describe their connection with God in many mystical traditions, including Jewish mysticism and Kabbalah where intimate metaphors and expressions are used to describe the intimate relationship between God and the soul. Meister Eckhart said, “God is nearer to me than I am to myself; He is just as near as I am to my self. He is nearer to me than I am to this my hand, and not just as much but much more; for the nearer He is, the nearer He draws, and the nearer He is, the more present and the more active.”

Finally, in Hinduism that you allude to, there is a strong tradition of personal devotion to deities, where devotees often address their chosen deity with great intimacy and affection. Devotees might use endearing terms and nicknames for deities in their prayers and devotional practices. For example, Lord Krishna, a popular deity in Hinduism, is often addressed with terms of endearment like “Krishna Ji” or “Laddu Gopal (sweet shepherd).”

This isn’t a case of borrowing, but circling the reality that has many names, and as we circle, concepts mix, which is abundantly clear in the OT. Whilst I agree that we need to acknowledge the internal logic of traditions, and not just mix concepts, we do need to ask ourselves where a dissonance occurs, and the OP was illustrating how people, even with a long career in Bible translation, can discover such problems and go off at a tangent - especially if we do not accept the sacred Unity of humankind, and acknowledge its various attempts at approaching the centre.

Especially this, yes.

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Well, of course not, since abba was Aramaic, and that was the language spoken by Jesus, and Jews began speaking Aramaic around 500 BCE, whereas prior to 1500 BCE when the oral traditions and many OT texts were being composed and first written, Jews spoke Hebrew. The fact that Jesus innovated on tradition by addressing God as “abba” in Aramaic doesn’t do anything at all to prove a point that the Jews did not conceive of God as loving and personal. Hagar names YHWH “the God who sees me” in the time of Abraham. God creates humanity “in his image,” and then Adam has a child “in his own image,” (Gen 5:3) seeming to point to the relationship between God and humanity from creation being like parent/child.

I don’t dispute a shift from henotheism to monotheism. I dispute the idea that Jesus introduced the idea that God was loving and personal to the Jews or that the Jews did not conceive of themselves as God’s children, that was a pagan Greek idea. Exodus 4:22 declares Israel God’s first-born son. Father/son or Parent/child imagery is prevalent in the OT texts as is Husband/Bride imagey. Jesus use of a familial term in Aramaic in prayer might have been novel, but approaching YHWH as a father figure was not. Also, it’s an Evangelical myth that abba means “daddy.” It was the word for father in the common speech like David’s use of אָב in Psalm 89:26. (See also 2Sam 7:14, 1Chr 17:13, 1Chr 22:10, 1Chr 28:6, Job 29:16, Ps 68:6, Ps 89:27, Isa 9:5, Isa 22:21, Isa 63:16, Isa 63:16, Isa 64:7, Jer 3:4, Jer 3:19, Jer 31:9, Mal 1:6)

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In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word for “father” is “אָב” (pronounced “av”). This Hebrew term is used to refer to one’s father and is the equivalent of the English word “father.” In Aramaic I am told this is also based on the root AB, but is pronounced AaB,uOHuON (Aramaic Lexicon) or abwoon, which is the way it is given in the Peshitta in the Lord’s Prayer. While both “Abba” and “av” essentially mean “father,” the use of “Abba” in the New Testament conveys the idea of a more personal and loving relationship between believers and God, emphasizing the concept of God as a compassionate and caring Father.

While some translations of the Bible render “Abba” as “Daddy” to emphasize the intimate nature of the relationship between the believer and God, I agree that it is not universally agreed upon among scholars that “Abba” specifically means “Daddy.” It was still a significant departure from the more formal and distant ways in which God was often addressed in the religious practices of the time. It is not necessarily a myth, but a matter of theological interpretation and how one chooses to convey the sense of intimacy and affection in the language of the translation.

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